Theres very little rps in BA actually :/nightcold wrote:nich gameplay makes things more complex then it already is..... if you want to have a rps gamplay play BA
NOTA 1.82
Moderators: smartie, Thor, PepeAmpere, Moderators, Content Developer
Re: NOTA 1.62
Re: NOTA 1.62
thelawenforcer wrote:a very popular starcraft commentator once said ' you will see the same units almost every game, but its the order in which they get those units that matters'
if you start including too much specialisation, there will be too many hard counters imo. whilst there are counters to different strategies, having a 10 option rock paper scissors kind of game isnt that good an alternative to what we have now.
most of TA is a 10 way RPS, thats why there are so many land units that you dont usually see, usually until someone finally discovers a good way to use them.
And TA is on the other side of the world from starcraft... The quote is true for SC, but TA is anything but SC, with a different values and general view on the way battles are done.
@JohannesH there is a LOT more RPS in NOTA than there is in BA, most notable is the veh>thuds>rockos>veh, although veh>thuds does not always work out the way you would want it to.
Either way, extra units will never hurt, and will at least feel fresh for a few months. I, personally, do not wish NOTA to end up the way XTA is now (conservative bunch of hard-pro players with 0 newbies who want to stick up)
Re: NOTA 1.62
NOTA ships have the best offensive capabilities on sea maps.
If you get an early destroyer there is no costeffective offensive counter.
Torpedo bombers takes too much time and infrastructure(energy). By the time you have 4 or 5 torpedo bombers the enemy has already reached your coast on maps like Small Supreme Islands or Tempest.
Hovers just fail against microed destroyers and especially if you don't have radar covarage your hover artillery can't even use its range efficiently.
Using a land army on maps like Small Supreme Battlefield in a 1v1 or as a combined teameffort can cause alot of trouble for an unprepared enemy but it is also easy to defend on this map and if you don't deal enough damage you will be in serius trouble as the enemy have control of the sea and might be sending long range ships your way.
In my opinion there are no offensive counters to ships on sea maps and even on maps like Tempest or Small Supreme Battlefield, where land can be defended easily, are dominated by ships.
Ships dominate in NOTA.
If you get an early destroyer there is no costeffective offensive counter.
Torpedo bombers takes too much time and infrastructure(energy). By the time you have 4 or 5 torpedo bombers the enemy has already reached your coast on maps like Small Supreme Islands or Tempest.
Hovers just fail against microed destroyers and especially if you don't have radar covarage your hover artillery can't even use its range efficiently.
Using a land army on maps like Small Supreme Battlefield in a 1v1 or as a combined teameffort can cause alot of trouble for an unprepared enemy but it is also easy to defend on this map and if you don't deal enough damage you will be in serius trouble as the enemy have control of the sea and might be sending long range ships your way.
In my opinion there are no offensive counters to ships on sea maps and even on maps like Tempest or Small Supreme Battlefield, where land can be defended easily, are dominated by ships.
Ships dominate in NOTA.
Re: NOTA 1.62
actually vecs are not a counter 2 thuds.....nota is not rps in that aspect, what wins you games is not what counter you use...but how u use your thuds(+ what support you use).....==Troy== wrote:thelawenforcer wrote:a very popular starcraft commentator once said ' you will see the same units almost every game, but its the order in which they get those units that matters'
if you start including too much specialisation, there will be too many hard counters imo. whilst there are counters to different strategies, having a 10 option rock paper scissors kind of game isnt that good an alternative to what we have now.
most of TA is a 10 way RPS, thats why there are so many land units that you dont usually see, usually until someone finally discovers a good way to use them.
And TA is on the other side of the world from starcraft... The quote is true for SC, but TA is anything but SC, with a different values and general view on the way battles are done.
@JohannesH there is a LOT more RPS in NOTA than there is in BA, most notable is the veh>thuds>rockos>veh, although veh>thuds does not always work out the way you would want it to.
Either way, extra units will never hurt, and will at least feel fresh for a few months. I, personally, do not wish NOTA to end up the way XTA is now (conservative bunch of hard-pro players with 0 newbies who want to stick up)
also i rlly like sea gameplay in nota....nota has the best sea gamplay out of all spring mods imo....
ok i'll admin i dont have a deep enough undestanding of BA 2 call it RPS...i take that back
actually trying to avoid a niche gameplay is helping nota be noob friendly....also, the nota community is nothing like the XTA one...XTA is more or less a popularity contest, the way babbles treats everyone/noobs and the fact that no one stands up to him(and others like him) is why XTA is dying, if someone acted like that in a nota game people would actaully defend the noob being bullied by the egotist.....hell i stopped playing XTA because babbles once tried forcing me out of my spot and even "ready-ed up", i of course ready-ed next to him and dguned his ass......the game was re-ed just for him(maybe...well they lost 2 players...but everyone was like "omfg babbles is gone"), i have not played a game of XTA(with babbles in it) since
Re: NOTA 1.62
Leveler / arty spam hardcounter thuds easy, just as rocko counters stump/flash hard.nightcold wrote: actually vecs are not a counter 2 thuds.....nota is not rps in that aspect, what wins you games is not what counter you use...but how u use your thuds(+ what support you use).....
The sea gameplay is essentially just destroyer micro. Spam dessies, then go for a capital, or spam more dessies and rush their dock. There is essentially no other strategy, and only a tiny amount of games last beyond the first capital. Sure destroyer micro and such is a lot of fun, but that doesnt constitute good gameplay.nightcold wrote: also i rlly like sea gameplay in nota....nota has the best sea gamplay out of all spring mods imo....
Sure, just tell your noob to spam dessies / thuds and they cant go too wrong, however that is more a sign of a lack of options.nightcold wrote: actually trying to avoid a niche gameplay is helping nota be noob friendly...
Re: NOTA 1.62
levelers are not much of counter 2 thuds.....i'll tell you what, lets play a game u spam nothing but levelers(arty 2 if u want) and i will spam thuds(not even stroms)....lets see what happens...levelers have a very slow reload, they are good at kbot hrassment but they can be hardly be called a counter(lets not forget that they are also rlly slow 2 make)..once the thud swarm gets in range levelers are as good as dead
same with arty....arty are no counter 2 thuds...u actually need 2 protect ur arty's from thuds with thuds(this is part of the troop positioning aspect of nota)...also arty play a diffrent role that thuds...apples to oranges mate
i would like to note that "options" are synonymous with RPS gameplay(more or less samething but diffrent pespective)...u cant have "options" without RPS gameplay.....
i like the tactical gameplay of nota, i dont want it to be a RPS game...
same with arty....arty are no counter 2 thuds...u actually need 2 protect ur arty's from thuds with thuds(this is part of the troop positioning aspect of nota)...also arty play a diffrent role that thuds...apples to oranges mate
i would like to note that "options" are synonymous with RPS gameplay(more or less samething but diffrent pespective)...u cant have "options" without RPS gameplay.....
i like the tactical gameplay of nota, i dont want it to be a RPS game...
Re: NOTA 1.62
I am not so much in favour of RPS gameplay and more against every game playing roughly the same as is the case in current sea. Options mean there are more viable ways to win or play the game, and ideally the better player wins.
As far as the hammer thing goes, arty and levelers in 1:1 mix pretty much dominate them, even moreso if you keep a few gators around to rush them if they get close (and absorb hits), all good tactics in nota land require a unit mix, which is a good thing, and some unit mixes do better against others.
As far as the hammer thing goes, arty and levelers in 1:1 mix pretty much dominate them, even moreso if you keep a few gators around to rush them if they get close (and absorb hits), all good tactics in nota land require a unit mix, which is a good thing, and some unit mixes do better against others.
Re: NOTA 1.62
I think that it would benefit sea gameplay if torpedo bombers didn't miss so often. If you micro the destroyer you can usually make half of the torpedoes miss or sometimes even all of them.
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Re: NOTA 1.62
then wouldnt it be a case of if u see torps it would guarantee that u would lose the targetted ship.
now im all for torps being changed cos atm torps do alot of damage but u tend to lose them all and also they can miss alot. making them cheaper and miss less would make them too strong tho. So making them easier to build, and easier to not get them all killed but they should do less damage in that case.
btw, pelicans own ships in the late game.
now im all for torps being changed cos atm torps do alot of damage but u tend to lose them all and also they can miss alot. making them cheaper and miss less would make them too strong tho. So making them easier to build, and easier to not get them all killed but they should do less damage in that case.
btw, pelicans own ships in the late game.
Re: NOTA 1.62
Now you can't even be guaranted to kill a lone destroyer with 6 torpedo bombers which cost 50% more in metal not to mention the energy and buildtime. Torpedo bombers is a big threat espacially against arm BC or other low hp big ships.
Personally I would prefer if torpedo bombers just got better against destroyers by actually hitting alot more frequently. There are already already antiair-hovers, fighters to defend against torp bombers and units or land that interfere with the path of the torpedoes.
Personally I would prefer if torpedo bombers just got better against destroyers by actually hitting alot more frequently. There are already already antiair-hovers, fighters to defend against torp bombers and units or land that interfere with the path of the torpedoes.
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Re: NOTA 1.62
ye, but theres nothing u can do to stop a bomber releasing its torpedo. Using fighters is very risky as they can get chopped down soooo fast by flak.
using hover aa is a late game possibility, but u wont often have ships and hovers at the same time in the early to mid game.
making torpedo bombers better but leaving their range and damage unchanged will just make them overly strong imo. It will be soo hard to create an actual fleet because torps will come in and kill everything instantly.
what id like to see rather tahn any increases in damage or hit percentage is the return rate of your planes. Even going up against one lone destroyer with 5 torpedo bombers, u could only get 2 back from it.
Id prefer significantly lower damage, but a higher rate of returning planes.
using hover aa is a late game possibility, but u wont often have ships and hovers at the same time in the early to mid game.
making torpedo bombers better but leaving their range and damage unchanged will just make them overly strong imo. It will be soo hard to create an actual fleet because torps will come in and kill everything instantly.
what id like to see rather tahn any increases in damage or hit percentage is the return rate of your planes. Even going up against one lone destroyer with 5 torpedo bombers, u could only get 2 back from it.
Id prefer significantly lower damage, but a higher rate of returning planes.
Re: NOTA 1.62
What about 2 modes for the torp planes? One of which is low altitude, fast and high damage torp, the other one is high altitude, lower damage, but "winged torp"
The reason why torp planes are like they are in NOTA is mainly because the torpedo planes have to have low alt to correctly deploy the torpedo (so it can easily return to correct depth, not hit the sea floor and keep the direction) But most of these issues should not be a real problem in TA universe.
Having the two modes, high alt torp planes will survive a single destroyer flak, while not dealing sufficient damage to completely kill it. Low alt torp planes will, on the other hand, be a suicidal bombers.
IMO, current torp planes are most of the time binary. in 90% of cases, against averagely skilled player, 4-5 torps is enough, even if he has 2-3 destroyers, you will not get your planes back, but he will loose the destroyer.
night, arty+levelers counters thuds.
And a reminder, we need a fix for the Vashps.
Edit : additionally, another option would be to make the repair pads / general repair rate of the torp/any planes much slower, while buffing their hp. So that if you damage the attacking bomber/torp plane by, say 50%, he will not be back in the next 6-7 minutes at least. This will also give more reasons to build more landing pads, and, most importantly, bomber spam will not be persistent, even if your AA was not sufficient to kill them off immediately. (fighters are usually binary, they either kill the bomber, or not, whether the flak/AA usually leaves the whole bomber pack with 30% hp left)
The reason why torp planes are like they are in NOTA is mainly because the torpedo planes have to have low alt to correctly deploy the torpedo (so it can easily return to correct depth, not hit the sea floor and keep the direction) But most of these issues should not be a real problem in TA universe.
Having the two modes, high alt torp planes will survive a single destroyer flak, while not dealing sufficient damage to completely kill it. Low alt torp planes will, on the other hand, be a suicidal bombers.
IMO, current torp planes are most of the time binary. in 90% of cases, against averagely skilled player, 4-5 torps is enough, even if he has 2-3 destroyers, you will not get your planes back, but he will loose the destroyer.
night, arty+levelers counters thuds.
And a reminder, we need a fix for the Vashps.
Edit : additionally, another option would be to make the repair pads / general repair rate of the torp/any planes much slower, while buffing their hp. So that if you damage the attacking bomber/torp plane by, say 50%, he will not be back in the next 6-7 minutes at least. This will also give more reasons to build more landing pads, and, most importantly, bomber spam will not be persistent, even if your AA was not sufficient to kill them off immediately. (fighters are usually binary, they either kill the bomber, or not, whether the flak/AA usually leaves the whole bomber pack with 30% hp left)
Re: NOTA 1.62
if arty and levelers are a counter to thuds....is there is reason that i'v never seen it happen yet???? if that was the case then during the kbot stage players would just arty/leveler spam and win..... levelers are ridiculously slow to make and are very slow in reload and movement....by the time the leveler has reach to the front lines/in range.... it takes seconds for the thud swarm to dominate...arty are helpless without protection.........
torp planes should be faster 2 make....
i would also like to note that there are options to sea in nota...you can make 2 subs instead of a destroyer(i'll admit when des stage picks up subs are useless), you can make a coastal for one less destroyer(costs about the same)....and can even hover and still have good footing....
good amount of sea games i'v played have past the des stage because both sides did not exchange fleets 2 early in the game....having costals will make exchanging fleets not possible without co-op of both sides... costals protect you till the BC stage, and if you don't have a decent fleet till then...well that's your problem
torp planes should be faster 2 make....
i would also like to note that there are options to sea in nota...you can make 2 subs instead of a destroyer(i'll admit when des stage picks up subs are useless), you can make a coastal for one less destroyer(costs about the same)....and can even hover and still have good footing....
good amount of sea games i'v played have past the des stage because both sides did not exchange fleets 2 early in the game....having costals will make exchanging fleets not possible without co-op of both sides... costals protect you till the BC stage, and if you don't have a decent fleet till then...well that's your problem
Re: NOTA 1.62
We're making some major changes to the early sea gameplay. It'll be easier to disengage thanks to more equal front/rear guns. The new ships should help make things more interesting and give a bit more opportunity for subs to be used early game. Destroyer AA is being downgraded a bit also.
Funny you should suggest a low and high altitude mode, troy, because we've added that for strategic bombers! Low altitude helps them hit more reliably but of course they take a lot more AA fire. Fighters will be high alt as well so they'll be a lot more survivable and vashp won't be able to hide as easily behind their aa. Should be interesting.
Funny you should suggest a low and high altitude mode, troy, because we've added that for strategic bombers! Low altitude helps them hit more reliably but of course they take a lot more AA fire. Fighters will be high alt as well so they'll be a lot more survivable and vashp won't be able to hide as easily behind their aa. Should be interesting.
Re: NOTA 1.62
+1 for making it rewarding to fire broadside with destroyers. I can own hovers faster then.Thor wrote:It'll be easier to disengage thanks to more equal front/rear guns.
Sweet! Then I can own noobs faster since both my torpedoes and my rear gun will be firing at the same time as I run away from their destroyers.
How? Why? Please explain.Thor wrote:The new ships should help make things more interesting and give a bit more opportunity for subs to be used early game.
That would make torpedo bombers more useful and antiair cruisers a tad bit more useful but antiair cruisers don't stand a chance against their cost in torpedo bombers or vashps. Ill rather bring some more hover AA than I already do.Thor wrote: Destroyer AA is being downgraded a bit also.
Leet! You could actually use bombers against moving units then, right?Thor wrote:Low altitude helps them hit more reliably but of course they take a lot more AA fire.
Interesting indeed. Swopping down behind the enemy AA killing all the enemy vashps.Thor wrote:Fighters will be high alt as well so they'll be a lot more survivable and vashp won't be able to hide as easily behind their aa. Should be interesting.
By the way, does the Land, Not land function work? My planes seem to go straight over enemy AA when I attack behind enemy lines.
Is there a way to make planes actually follow the orders you give them when they are on their way back to reload? I lose alot of planes because they go back to reload and then continue their previous order which they had before they ran out of fuel even though I gave them other orders when they were on the way to refueling.
Re: NOTA 1.62
I have to agree with Godde about the dests.. if you run away, your torps do hit the enemy dest, while his torps fall behind.
Godde, more ships simply means higher potential for strategies, or at least, a new gameplay for a few weeks until we figure everything out. I am all for that.
Godde, more ships simply means higher potential for strategies, or at least, a new gameplay for a few weeks until we figure everything out. I am all for that.
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Re: NOTA 1.62
godde, stick the planes on land at 0
that way they dont try to refuel until they are empty and dont try to return when they are low hp.
that way they dont try to refuel until they are empty and dont try to return when they are low hp.
Re: NOTA 1.62
i do agree with godde about there being no point in adding low and high altitude mode 4 strategic bombers.....they are used 4 attacking heavily guarded stationary positions...they are awful 4 attacking moving targets....being hit by none flank 2 a attempt 2 hurt moving targets defeats the purpose
rear guns being amp-ed a bit 2 equal out with front 2 help "disengage" easier is tp help avoid exchanging fleets 2 early...making sea games last longer...hopefully passing the des stage for both sides..i think it's worth the trade off of killing off hovers faster...ships are meant to dominate hovers anyway
imo a coastal should cost just as much a destroyer
hovers should be a bit more cost effective in terms of how they do VS. des.....i think 3-4 can take on a des(according to wiki)...they should cost less than a des if they dont already....
subs can be more usefull(imo) by having their torps outrage the ship torp...and haveing a bit more HP to last after 1 torp
anyway....we should not get carried away by judging something we have not experience yet...thor knows what he is doing, ffs he made nota...
rear guns being amp-ed a bit 2 equal out with front 2 help "disengage" easier is tp help avoid exchanging fleets 2 early...making sea games last longer...hopefully passing the des stage for both sides..i think it's worth the trade off of killing off hovers faster...ships are meant to dominate hovers anyway
imo a coastal should cost just as much a destroyer
hovers should be a bit more cost effective in terms of how they do VS. des.....i think 3-4 can take on a des(according to wiki)...they should cost less than a des if they dont already....
subs can be more usefull(imo) by having their torps outrage the ship torp...and haveing a bit more HP to last after 1 torp
anyway....we should not get carried away by judging something we have not experience yet...thor knows what he is doing, ffs he made nota...
Re: NOTA 1.62
But my point is that they go back to refuel when they are empty and ignores any orders given to them in until they are refueled. So if you ordered the plane to attack an enemy and it runs out of ammo it will go back to refuel and proceed to attack the enemy after it is refueled even though you gave it an order to do something else.thelawenforcer wrote:godde, stick the planes on land at 0
that way they dont try to refuel until they are empty and dont try to return when they are low hp.
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Re: NOTA 1.62
ah yes, i suppose thats true.