Clarification

Clarification

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Jools
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Clarification

Post by Jools »

A clarification wrt viewtopic.php?f=48&t=33408:

Creating a new forum doesn't equal moving a forum. I have never requested any forum move, the new forum was created because the ability to post in this forum is intermittent and a forum move is not desired by the active xta developers at all (that includes me and knorke).

Since we have been banned we have been unable to correct the misinformation. Gajop and Silentwings are spring moderators and they have no insight in the development of XTA at all. They also do not speak to us so I have no idea where this information comes from.
gajop
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Re: Clarification

Post by gajop »

Jools wrote:Creating a new forum doesn't equal moving a forum. I have never requested any forum move, the new forum was created because the ability to post in this forum is intermittent and a forum move is not desired by the active xta developers at all (that includes me and knorke).

They also do not speak to us so I have no idea where this information comes from.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=32914
"Relocating the XTA forum"

relocate
verb (used with object), relocated, relocating.
1. to move (a building, company, etc.) to a different location

Right.
malric
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Re: Clarification

Post by malric »

As a player (of a game) I generally expect one official forum for a game. The below "clarification" confuses me (maybe for others it is perfectly clear, dunno) as I do not understand which is the "official" forum.

And regarding the "move", I am sure nobody expected the posts to "move", but if I see a sticky saying "New forum" posted by the maintainer, I expected "the posters" to "move"...
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Jools
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Re: Clarification

Post by Jools »

That tread was made in January and is quoted outside its context. If we must discuss grammar, the use of the gerund (relocating) means that the action is progressive and not completed. If I would have meant a finished action I would instead have used the perfect tense (has been relocated). That form implies that the action has been completed.

But you don't have to analyse grammar: you can just ask us what we mean if something is not clear.
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Jools
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Re: Clarification

Post by Jools »

This is the official forum for xta de jure. The new one is the official forum de facto.
malric
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Re: Clarification

Post by malric »

Thank you for the answer. I would suggest at least to put this "explanation" in the "New forum" sticky.

Regarding the answer, I personally find it a bit not clear. The best it would be to have one official forum. This is merely a suggestion, do not want to discuss here the advantages/disadvantages for any choice you make.
gajop
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Re: Clarification

Post by gajop »

I think everyone including yourself assumed you were moving away, and you're just being extra ambiguous now for unknown reasons..
Anyway, you are of course welcome to stay, and wouldn't even be the first dev group to use two forums (s44 and technically ZK iirc).
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Jools
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Re: Clarification

Post by Jools »

Of course we want to have one official forum. But as you can see it's quite hard to post anything here that can not be interpreted as "backseat moderation". Of course the xta team should be in charge of warning users here and locking threads. That's my opinion and not intended as backseat moderation.

For one thing the term "backseat" is wrong since this is the xta part of the forum and we are the xta team. So say frontseat moderation then instead.
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PicassoCT
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Re: Clarification

Post by PicassoCT »

..anyway the wind blows, does it really matter -tttoooooo meee?
"Maaaaamaaaa, just killed the man.. put a gooon against his head, squeeze the Trigger warning, now im bread!"
"Mamaaaaaa - strife has just begone. But now im gonna blow it all away. Mamal... oh,"..

If you search the brawling with moderation, does that mean your game is no longer entertaining you?
If that is the case, what does that say about us modder-fuggers?

If you are annoyed by people who dont fit your definition of properly behaving people, does that make you a good moderator of that sort of people?
malric
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Re: Clarification

Post by malric »

Jools wrote: But as you can see it's quite hard to post anything here that can not be interpreted as "backseat moderation".
I can see a lot of what I would call "unnecessary provocations". (Example: "They also do not speak to us so I have no idea where this information comes from." - I also got the impression you wanted to move, and I am not a moderator or in any way related to gajop/silentwings/any other moderator, and for me this information came from all that I have seen posted by you in the forum. So, in my view they were just trying to support you in your decisions).

Would have been that hard to just say: "It seems there is a confusion, we did not intend ever to move the forum, fixed now"? (and maybe the same as a PM to the moderators that got that impression). Restarting the discussion about banning, insight, information and etc. does not solve anything, except it might create additional tension.
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Jools
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Re: Clarification

Post by Jools »

malric wrote: Would have been that hard to just say: "It seems there is a confusion, we did not intend ever to move the forum, fixed now"? (and maybe the same as a PM to the moderators that got that impression). Restarting the discussion about banning, insight, information and etc. does not solve anything, except it might create additional tension.
It would not have been hard at all, but one cannot post when banned.
malric
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Re: Clarification

Post by malric »

I meant the message you posted TODAY at 11:03 am (sorry if i was unclear).
8611y
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Re: Clarification

Post by 8611y »

Post removed. Felonies 3, 6 and 7.

As you have been told repeatedly, pick your knorke or 8611 account, stick to it, and make your posts using it. Repeated account creation will be treated as spam, and removed. (Silentwings)
malric
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Re: Clarification

Post by malric »

I have seen (and read) it the first time also ;). But I fail to see what are you trying to achieve. I was honestly confused about the existence of the 2 forums and would have wanted better clarification of what is the status/plan. Re-iterating here the whole (back) history was not my intention/curiosity/don't think it achieves anything (maybe except if you like a fighting).

I have checked some of the other games sub-forums, none have a sticky saying "new forum" (or anything about other forum as far as I could tell from the titles. ZK for example looks dead - which is normal as the other (official) forum is active). So I still think someone could have been easily confused.
8611z
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Re: Clarification

Post by 8611z »

The text below was now deleted twice.
The explaination got deleted too.
Note that right the mentioned "Anyone want to play?" thread got now unlocked but also the replies silently got merged into one thread. This seems like a cover-up attempt because now all traces of what happend are gone.

---

Realistically XTA has too few players for even one forum.

On subforums:
Many games with a forum on springrts.com have/had a second forum on external sites.
The reasons were manifold, but only games maintainers and players needed to know them.
No matter how it was worded, that was never interpreted in a way to close threads in any subforum.
Even if one might assume something, acting on it is something entirely different.
Unless explicit ordered, these subforums were simply left alone.
This is new behaviour.


When the Anyone want to play? thread was locked, I had used report-function to make a (1) report on it.
Reply was a "warning for troll reports."
Thread stayed locked.
I used contact-admin function.
Reply was IP-ban.
Moderation continued to play clueless in this thread and in viewtopic.php?f=48&t=33609
Misunderstanding seems unlikely, by then they were aware.


Moderation on springrts.com has never worked because the wiggle-room of rules was used too freely.
Too often moderators point to their right to interpret rules, but it was too one-sided and it became an excuse for power abuse or looking away.
Any critique and attempt at discussion was brushed aside as "backseat moderation."
The option to take a problem to different or higher staff member does not exist: The remaining few are Yes-men to each other, the 30+ moderators plus fancy titles like "Community Leaders" are inactive hulls.
= The effect on forum by this moderation style is that to me the forum is unusable.

With the recent "Changes to Project Subforums Groups & Permissions" too many people can alter other people posts.
For normal posters there is no way to trace this.
Moderation has their own history of anonymously (& without any notes) altering posts themselves, and not paying attention to forum log.
= I do not trust this.


Allegedly spring developers plan to eventually ban any content related "Total Annhilation", which of course would affect XTA.
I never believed such rumors, seemed like people using TA-mods as scapegoats for their own frustration..
But maybe....maybe not bad idea to bookmark both forums. Just in case, to have a backup plan.

Until then, just play the game.
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FLOZi
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Re: Clarification

Post by FLOZi »

Your posts keep getting deleted because (as you have been told multiple times) your account-spamming is seen as ban evasion.

Use knorke or the original 8611.

Re-read the thread about the changes to sub-forum moderator privileges (tl;dr they don't actually have any moderator powers anymore)

Your misrepresentation of the facts remains willful and malevolent.
8611z
Posts: 169
Joined: 08 Jul 2015, 20:20

Re: Clarification

Post by 8611z »

There was no such notes about accounts and suppossedly none are banned atm. The last warning said "warning for troll reports" and ban said "A ban has been issued on your IP." I looked email too.
There was an explaination for accounts but it got deleted.
As replied to moderation to their pm ("[...]Or, make a new account and message the moderators group to nominate it as your single new account.")
my reply:
[...]
"nominate this as my single new account."
The changes to sub-forum moderator privileges ( viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33523 ) still looks the same as before.

The facts do not need my interpretation to be "willful and malevolent."
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Jools
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Re: Clarification

Post by Jools »

Can we try to do something to overcome our divisions? Obviously we have a lack of trust in each other, but can we just stick to playing the game, and not locking every second thread in this forum.

If we try to keep each other on arms length distance and just continue to be pragmatic then at least we both can focus our energies on more important stuff. Just let some new moderators handle this forum please, such as GF or Anarchid? That would work better maybe.
gajop
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Re: Clarification

Post by gajop »

Jools wrote:Can we try to do something to overcome our divisions?
This one is simple: stop acting like spam bots (creating multiple accounts and necroing huge numbers of threads for propaganda) and stop making posts about how moderation should run on this site.
Jools wrote:Obviously we have a lack of trust in each other
Trust in you was lost when you abused your subforum moderator privileges, but that has no impact on how you will be moderated, I just wouldn't give you keys to my house or SSH keys to my server.
Jools wrote: , but can we just stick to playing the game, and not locking every second thread in this forum.
Notice how the threads locked have nothing to do with XTA - the game, but are always about some moderating issue you create.
Jools wrote: Just let some new moderators handle this forum please, such as GF or Anarchid? That would work better maybe.
"I'm getting banned, please don't moderate" doesn't work.
Anarchid is not a mod but I think he'd be a good one. GF is a mod but isn't active.

My honest opinion is that months/years down the line this will probably end in both of you being perma banned as knorke will just keep creating spam accounts and spam posts and you'll keep on creating these kind of threads and posts. As far as I see it, it's completely up to you if you want to use this forum to work/play Spring or complain about moderators, but so far, you've lately resorted to the 2nd option almost exclusively, which won't lead to anything good.
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Silentwings
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Re: Clarification

Post by Silentwings »

8611z wrote:There was no such notes about accounts and suppossedly none are banned atm.
It was placed into the ban message (which phpbb calls "reason shown to the user") on 4+ of your accounts, and in the original warning messages (which phpbb claims is also shown to the user). If that message failed to reach you, it's down to the difficulty, both for yourself and for us, of dealing with account spam; I guess you did not access those accounts, and you now claim to have forgotten the passwords to your two original accounts - which, for example, would both have told you. Nonetheless, I am glad this is resolved.
can we just stick to playing the game
I can't, I don't play XTA. My (rare) incursions into this forum occur when my responsibility as a moderator requires it, and this will continue to be the case. I don't enjoy making them.

The current situation is that this forum contains a thread called "Relocating the XTA forum", another thread called "Relocating the XTA repository", a sticky called "New XTA Forum" and a third thread marked "Clarification". The threads are scant, at best, of informative content, and you should both be embarrassed by the level of provocation that you've sunk too. At some point there was also a rant in #sy followed by disappearance of the XTA hosts, which later reappeared. As you can see, everyone who responded, myself included, was unable to untangle this and work out what was really intended.

Naturally, apologies for any actions taken based on misinformation, but it is not our responsibility to divine your intentions, it is your responsibility to make them clear.

I do not think this thread provides much clarification, and you are both currently in a situation where the volume of your recent violations of the forum rules means a single warning results in a long mandatory minimum ban. From my point of view, if you want to rebuild trust, the onus is on you both to behave like adults.

I suggest also, that you make an unambiguous post, in a new thread, linking to your new forum, with an explanation of the status of your two forums. I will be happy to replace the current sticky with it, if asked.
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