please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Hearken back to the days of yore and enjoy the first major Spring module!

Moderators: Moderators, Content Developer

User avatar
knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by knorke » 30 Mar 2013, 18:32

Yesterday autohost was set to XTAPEv9726 so that version was needed to play.
But nobody had a download link because appearently it was only hosted on some filesharing site?
Superannoying, use springfiles and/or rapid!
If it is not "official" version then do not put it on autohost.

btw XTAPEv9726 now on
http://kloot.darkstars.co.uk/?C=M;O=D
0 x

User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2804
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Jools » 30 Mar 2013, 22:44

You are of course right. I put it on autohost because everyone was playing on it.

This is still a test version because it misses the jeffy. So I guess we should just export a new version from svn and put this on springfiles.
0 x

User avatar
Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
Posts: 14600
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Forboding Angel » 31 Mar 2013, 09:18

Y u no use rapid???
0 x

User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Neddie » 31 Mar 2013, 12:18

It is a mystery to everyone.
0 x

User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2804
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Jools » 31 Mar 2013, 17:52

We will use rapid in next official version. But latest version is a test version (for example there is one unit missing due to a typo), but it's still so much better than the latest official version + patch so it is cuurently played. But once the collision volumes are fixed a new and official version can be released.
0 x

User avatar
Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
Posts: 14600
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Forboding Angel » 31 Mar 2013, 21:21

With rapid you could fix that mistake immediately. No worries or waits.
0 x

User avatar
Deadnight Warrior
Posts: 183
Joined: 08 Jun 2009, 17:59

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Deadnight Warrior » 01 Apr 2013, 20:51

There are several reasons we don't like using rapid.

First it's broken in 94.0, at least the manual client, so you don't know what's the latest version on rapid and you can't check that with rapid account either.

Second, it's one of the worst content managment systems I've seen. All the files are stored in their own GZIP files named after file's MD5 hash, and archives contain the same thing. So you can't browse around the archive looking at files as you usualy open a binary instead of text one. And it creates quite the mess on one's HDD, due to load of small files. Also I must upload the whole archive to it, and in SDZ, which has lower compression ratio than SD7 so I use more bandwidth, be it on my side or rapid server. If I'm already uploading the whole archive, then to springfiles in SD7, as all supported spring archive formats sync with each other (yes, the user will have to download the whole archive too, so that's not bandwidth saving, but we're not releasing 2 versions per week).

Third, I hate any automated services, as automation usualy goes in the wrong direction and creates users that have no clue about how their computers work, nor how to download one single file from internet and put it into designated folder.
0 x

User avatar
CarRepairer
Cursed Zero-K Developer
Posts: 3359
Joined: 07 Nov 2007, 21:48

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by CarRepairer » 01 Apr 2013, 21:21

I can't respond to all that other stuff, but...
Deadnight Warrior wrote:so you don't know what's the latest version on rapid
...if you tag the latest version with xta:latest then you don't have to know and your autohost can simply be pinned to that tag.
0 x

User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Neddie » 01 Apr 2013, 21:37

Deadnight Warrior wrote: Third, I hate any automated services, as automation usualy goes in the wrong direction and creates users that have no clue about how their computers work, nor how to download one single file from internet and put it into designated folder.
Although I sympathize with your views and share the realistic cynicism behind them, when there is a choice between accessibility and user education, it is usually wiser to select for the former. Most users do not want to know how their computers work, most users lack the time and energy to monitor how their computers work. We live in a society of dependent specialization, and while we may seek out and support those who have a desire to understand, we must accept that they are rare individuals indeed.
0 x

User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2804
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Jools » 01 Apr 2013, 22:28

Jools wrote:We will use rapid in next official version.
Oops, I meant we're gonna use springfiles. Why not rapid also with all official releases, but at least I think we agreed not to put the svn on it.

Also, I don't think it's true that most users dont care how something works, I think most people want to be in control and know what happens. Would you also agree that most people are fine with jumping into a taxi and hoping the driver gets them to the right hotel? I think most people want to be in control in both situations.
Last edited by Jools on 01 Apr 2013, 22:53, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Neddie » 01 Apr 2013, 22:35

Completely different level of sophistication and abstraction in play. A taxi cab driver does something you can do manually with your own vehicle. A computer performs calculations of a complexity and speed that the individual cannot match, often to create experiences which do not (generally) exist outside of the system.

If people wanted to know how their computers actually worked, then Linux would likely be the dominant operating system. Tablets and All-In-One-PCs would not have significant market share. Notebooks would be modular and comprehensively upgradeable. The evidence that people, on average, do not want to understand is readily apparent in the market.

Anyway, this is a complete digression from the point. We aren't representative users, and I do agree that most people want the appearance of control. It just so happens that the appearance and reality of control are separate.
0 x

User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2804
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Jools » 01 Apr 2013, 22:58

Actually a cab driver is much more sophisticated than a computer: a computer cannot think, but it is really good in calculating. And doing that very fast.

And getting a file to download from springfiles isn't a lot of hassle. I think firefox has an extension that automagically automatically selects download folder based on file extension. So it's not a lot more clicks and you have control against viruses etc...
0 x

gajop
Moderator
Posts: 3023
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 20:42

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by gajop » 01 Apr 2013, 23:27

Deadnight Warrior wrote: Also I must upload the whole archive to it, and in SDZ, which has lower compression ratio than SD7 so I use more bandwidth, be it on my side or rapid server. If I'm already uploading the whole archive, then to springfiles in SD7, as all supported spring archive formats sync with each other (yes, the user will have to download the whole archive too, so that's not bandwidth saving, but we're not releasing 2 versions per week).
The per-user bandwidth really should be the main point of concern (imo). Updates are really small when using rapid when games mature, as you usually aren't changing the models all the time.
Also I kinda find it odd there isn't a rapid-upload tool that would do the same partial updates, but instead for uploading to rapid server(s). Is there a technical reason we don't have that, or just no one did it yet?
Deadnight Warrior wrote: Third, I hate any automated services, as automation usualy goes in the wrong direction and creates users that have no clue about how their computers work, nor how to download one single file from internet and put it into designated folder.
Well you don't *have* to use rapid in an automated way, just like you could automate downloads from http/ftp servers.
Also, there are many users who don't care how computers work, and some of us who do know, don't really care to repeat menial (error-prone) things.

It's up to you of course, but I think Spring will have a bright future now that almost everything can be automatically downloaded/updated.
0 x

SirMaverick
Posts: 834
Joined: 19 May 2009, 21:10

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by SirMaverick » 02 Apr 2013, 00:09

Neddie wrote:
Deadnight Warrior wrote: Third, I hate any automated services, as automation usualy goes in the wrong direction and creates users that have no clue about how their computers work, nor how to download one single file from internet and put it into designated folder.
Although I sympathize with your views and share the realistic cynicism behind them, when there is a choice between accessibility and user education, it is usually wiser to select for the former. Most users do not want to know how their computers work, most users lack the time and energy to monitor how their computers work. We live in a society of dependent specialization, and while we may seek out and support those who have a desire to understand, we must accept that they are rare individuals indeed.
Ack. Don't expect every played to be an expert on how computer and especially spring works.
Manual downloads were always a barrier for new players. They just wanted to play. But with new updates they had to download a new archive and place it in a specific folder.
gajop wrote:
Deadnight Warrior wrote: Also I must upload the whole archive to it, and in SDZ, which has lower compression ratio than SD7 so I use more bandwidth, be it on my side or rapid server. If I'm already uploading the whole archive, then to springfiles in SD7, as all supported spring archive formats sync with each other (yes, the user will have to download the whole archive too, so that's not bandwidth saving, but we're not releasing 2 versions per week).
Rapid is not perfect and was made with features needed at that time (automated small updates).
If you have fewer updates then your benefit will be smaller. One the other hand I haven't downloaded a game archive for years.
The per-user bandwidth really should be the main point of concern (imo). Updates are really small when using rapid when games mature, as you usually aren't changing the models all the time.
Also I kinda find it odd there isn't a rapid-upload tool that would do the same partial updates, but instead for uploading to rapid server(s). Is there a technical reason we don't have that, or just no one did it yet?
I don't know for sure, but I doubt it's a technical reason. It was probably easier to implement this way. And server bandwidth was not an issue.
0 x

User avatar
knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by knorke » 02 Apr 2013, 01:25

so much theoterical blabla, important thing is that game version from autohost must always be available for download.

imo for XTA we could use this:
http://springrts.com/wiki/Rapid#creating_a_release
It will put the file on rapid but a zip file for browser download is also generated. (So no extra manual zipping nessecary)
Manual download will always be here: http://packages.springrts.com/builds/ (if we want we can also mirror it to springfiles.com but maybe not even needed)

Also I kinda find it odd there isn't a rapid-upload tool that would do the same partial updates, but instead for uploading to rapid server(s).
If the project is on SVN, it kind of works like that as svn clients only upload the changes.

---
Manual downloads were always a barrier for new players. They just wanted to play. But with new updates they had to download a new archive and place it in a specific folder.
Thing is that every player is able to click on a link, download the file and place it in some folder. Crude, but always works.
If a player has problems with the automatic download of his lobby, it is usually impossible to help him.
0 x

User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2804
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Jools » 02 Apr 2013, 09:10

Ok, I agree. But just to clarify: it is one thing to make every release available on rapid or some other release managing site. It is another issue to put the svn there and let players update wityh every little fix on the svn á la ca/0k.

I think XTA works best with a major release version with 2 decimals, like 9.73, and a minor release with 3 decimals, like 9.731. Please, no more betas or patches...
0 x

User avatar
Deadnight Warrior
Posts: 183
Joined: 08 Jun 2009, 17:59

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by Deadnight Warrior » 02 Apr 2013, 22:46

Bad choice of words.
Deadnight Warrior wrote:and creates users that have no clue about how their computers work
I wanted to say
Deadnight Warrior wrote:and creates users that have no clue about using their computers
To use your computer you don't have to know anything about it's internal circutry or hardware in general. You just have to know how to use your favourite web browser/text editor/file manager/etc.

But it's interesting to see how so many people responded to that. People which neither care about XTA (my appologies if you actually do, but then play a game with us from time to time at least) nor will help us by stretching such discussion.

So far there are at least 4 or 5 last stable versions of XTA on rapid. And whenever we release a stable version, I do put it on rapid. It's just that these experimental betas/patches are played more often than stable, means that it's always the same people playing XTA, and they know how to get them (assuming one of the devs doesn't decide to put it onto fileshare service without providing a link for users).

That said it's up to Helium owner to allow us to rehost it to XTA:latest, as it's locked to outdated XTA 9.715 beta and every regular XTA player with any admin rights failed to rehost it to latest version. And looking in the autohosts game list, I saw all the versions up to 9.726 (the version that starded this topic) so it has the necessary files.
0 x

User avatar
SpliFF
Posts: 1224
Joined: 28 Jul 2008, 06:51

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by SpliFF » 03 Apr 2013, 03:46

I have no issues with rapid except that it appears to mirror the functionality of existing free tools like GIT that already support differential compression, multiple versions, etc. When small communities create custom tools/libraries/formats to do the same job as existing ones it usually just creates future maintenance burdens.
0 x

User avatar
Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
Posts: 14600
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: please no more

Post by Forboding Angel » 04 Apr 2013, 07:01

Oh for the love of god. DKW that takes the cake. It is also clear that none of you have the foggiest idea how rapid works.

There is a manual command line tool so I dunno wtf you're on about. For windows I even wrote a bat menu for it.

With rapid you can output all the files to an sdd/sdz with a single command.

Games using rapid are tagged. To release a new version you simply make a commit with a certain tag in it and viola a new release, then for users to update to it, they just use xta:latest or join a host using the latest version and all lobbies will DL it for them.

Your diatribe about users was cute, if not completely silly and unrealistic.
0 x

User avatar
knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: please no more "test" versions on filesharing sites

Post by knorke » 05 Apr 2013, 12:19

i have mirrored latest version http://kloot.darkstars.co.uk/XTAPEv9726.sdz to
http://springfiles.com/spring/games/xta-27

Does anyone know how to make
http://springfiles.com/spring/games/xta to always point to latest XTA version? It seems to have correctly copied over the version history but points to 9.66 which is very old...
0 x

Post Reply

Return to “XTA”

cron