Build option layout

Build option layout

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[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
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Build option layout

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

Its messed up and difficult to learn as for the most part there's no real consistency as to the order.

New players have to get used to it, where as for "us" its all learnt and natural. There for changing it will piss people off; but i think its the right choice to change it.

Image

Just to elaborate on the obvious here...

I put the DT first, which you may find odd but its for a reason. The typical strategy of defending your Com against missile attack is a quick DT wall. They are often built around Mex and chock points. For these reason, as they are a fast build-able form of defence, i put this first.

The mex is the 5th option, but is 99% of all cases the first thing to be built. Solar is the 1st choice, but as we know the player should always try to go wind if possible.

t1 kbot then t1 tank, then t2 tank then t2 kbot ?? why are these reversed ? Where's the consistency ?

The entire land/sea set up is all jumbled and not separated, which is just confusing and annoying personally. Which frankly is half the reason why i never go as a sea player.

The cons build-able defensive weapons are all over the place, and are not placed in scale of cost.

I could go on and on, its clear that it needs fixing. Ide like some feedback on this please. Do you like my suggestions ? Do you have a better idea?
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Jools
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Re: Build option layout

Post by Jools »

I think your idea is good. Nobody has probably put thought into this, that's why it's a mess. Sea should definitely be separated from land.

Personally I use hotkeys for building mexxes and dt:s, but yeah, those are primary build objects, along llt.

I also think we should not make decisions for noobs. Let wind be available also on no-wind maps. Trial and error is the best way to learn.
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
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Re: Build option layout

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

Thanks for that, but i have done somthing like this before waaaaaay back but never actually finished it. haha.

Jools
"I also think we should not make decisions for noobs. Let wind be available also on no-wind maps. Trial and error is the best way to learn."

Trial and error is the best and fastest way to learn, yes. However i dont think allowing windfarms to be built on no-wind maps is a good idea. Thats like packing a solar charger to go caving, you just wouldnt do it. I get your point, i just agree with it. I like the way their greyed out, noobs need all the help they can get. And we dont have enough of them to leave miss-leading build options around to confuse them.

Anyway, whilst were talking about build options...

Questions:
Why dont we have t1 air builders in t2 labs? There so cheap and easy to use as expendable reclaimers. I build t1 lab all over again just to get them. Its frustrating!

Why dont we have the mine-layer in t2 veh lab?

Why does rez bot build such odd stuff?

Code: Select all

	[core_resurrection_kbot]
	{
		canbuild1=core_solar_collector;
		canbuild2=core_wind_generator;
		canbuild3=core_energy_storage;
		canbuild4=core_metal_storage;
		canbuild5=core_metal_extractor;
		canbuild6=core_metal_maker;
		canbuild7=core_advanced_radar_tower;
		canbuild8=core_light_laser_tower;
		canbuild9=core_moho_mine;
		canbuild10=core_geothermal_powerplant;
		canbuild11=core_dragons_teeth;
		canbuild12=core_fortification_wall;
		canbuild13=core_cobra;
		canbuild14=core_gaat_gun;
		canbuild15=core_viper;
		canbuild16=core_immolator;
		canbuild17=core_kbot_lab;
		canbuild18=core_adv_kbot_lab;
		canbuild19=core_nano_tower;
	}
Its a bastard of t1 and t2 stuff. Most undefined unit in xta, except hover builder...but dont let me get started on that sod.

Should Rez not be able to build anything at all, just assist and rez?

If it should build, then what exactly? Maybe something like this?...

Code: Select all

[core_resurrection_kbot]
	{
		canbuild1=core_fortification_wall;
		canbuild2=core_moho_mine;
		canbuild3=core_moho_metal_maker;
		canbuild4=core_energy_storage;
		canbuild5=core_metal_storage;
		canbuild6=core_advanced_radar_tower;
		canbuild7=core_nano_tower;
		canbuild8=core_geothermal_powerplant;
		canbuild9=core_light_laser_tower;
		canbuild10=core_gaat_gun;
		canbuild11=core_viper;
		canbuild12=core_immolator;
		canbuild13=core_cobra;
		canbuild14=core_kbot_lab;
		canbuild15=core_adv_kbot_lab;
	} 
But even in suggesting this, why should it build any labs at all? and why moho mines and mohoMM and not any light fus? And what of the arm version?

Adv builders

Code: Select all

[core_adv_construction_kbot]
	{
		canbuild1=core_fortification_wall;
		canbuild2=core_moho_mine;
		canbuild3=core_moho_metal_maker;
		canbuild4=core_geothermal_powerplant;
		canbuild5=core_light_fusion_power_plant;
		canbuild6=core_cloakable_fusion_power_plant;
		canbuild7=core_fusion_power_plant;
		canbuild8=core_energy_storage;
		canbuild9=core_metal_storage;
		canbuild10=core_advanced_radar_tower;
		canbuild11=core_radar_jamming_tower;
		canbuild12=core_nano_tower;
		canbuild13=core_light_laser_tower;
        canbuild14=core_gaat_gun;
	    canbuild15=core_toaster;
	    canbuild16=core_torpedo_launcher;	
		canbuild17=core_cobra;
		canbuild18=core_punisher;
		canbuild19=core_viper;
		canbuild20=core_immolator;
		canbuild21=core_doomsday_machine;
		canbuild22=core_intimidator;
		canbuild23=core_targeting_facility;
		canbuild24=core_fortitude_missile_defense;
		canbuild25=core_neutron;
		canbuild26=core_silencer;
		canbuild27=core_krogoth_gantry;
		canbuild28=core_buzzsaw;
		canbuild29=core_kbot_lab;
		canbuild30=core_adv_kbot_lab;
		canbuild31=core_vehicle_plant;
		canbuild32=core_adv_vehicle_plant;
		canbuild33=core_aircraft_plant;
		canbuild34=core_adv_aircraft_plant;
		canbuild35=core_air_repair_pad;
		canbuild36=core_shipyard;
		canbuild37=core_adv_shipyard;
		canbuild38=core_hovercraft_platform;
		canbuild39=COREBFORTNS;//xtaids 
		canbuild40=corfff;//xtaids
		canbuild41=screamer;//xtaids   
	}
Some of the good t1 stuff was missing out here, so i added them in for good measure. Had a little play test last night and i think it works well. A little confusing at first as stuff is moved around, but then feels much more intuitive (imo).
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
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Re: Build option layout

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

not sure about the
canbuild27=core_krogoth_gantry;
now. Should it be classed as a factory or an end game object like silencer/buzz ?
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Jools
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Re: Build option layout

Post by Jools »

It is a factory, although it can build only one unit.
gantry/ˈɡantri/
▶noun (pl. gantries)

1 a bridge-like overhead structure supporting equipment such as a crane or railway signals.

■ a tall framework supporting a space rocket prior to launching.

2 a collection of inverted bottles with optics for serving measures in a bar.

– origin ME (denoting a wooden stand for barrels): prob. from dial. gawn (contr. of gallon) + tree
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
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Posts: 266
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Re: Build option layout

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

ok, so where shall i put it then?

canbuild29=core_kbot_lab;
canbuild30=core_adv_kbot_lab;
canbuild31=core_vehicle_plant;
canbuild32=core_adv_vehicle_plant;
#1 Here? Last in ground based factories
canbuild33=core_aircraft_plant;
canbuild34=core_adv_aircraft_plant;
canbuild35=core_air_repair_pad;
#2 Here? Just before Sea and hovies ?
canbuild36=core_shipyard;
canbuild37=core_adv_shipyard;
canbuild38=core_hovercraft_platform;
#3 Here? Last of all factories ?

I like 1 & 3 ...
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Jools
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Re: Build option layout

Post by Jools »

I like 3. But I think it doesn't matter so much.

About F.A.R.K. and NECRO: it used to be the way that f.a.r.k. was just a Fast Assistant and Repair Kbot, but someone changed at some point. Also, necro used to be the only unit capable of resurrection. Would be actually quite cool to revert to that; it would make arm and core a bit different again.

I guess the reason that the F.A.R.K. has a lot of build options because it's not so much used anyway, so it was boosted this way. Of course the reason no one uses it is that it's quite expensive, up to a build cost of about 1400 from 492 in ota. The reason the build cost was increased is that it was quite op when it just cost 492 m to build.
Last edited by Jools on 16 Dec 2012, 02:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Deadnight Warrior
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Joined: 08 Jun 2009, 17:59

Re: Build option layout

Post by Deadnight Warrior »

Personaly, I prefer sea stuff at the back of the list and factories sorted by tech levels, so in case of Krog gantry and CORE Adv. Construction Kbot, it would be Kbot Lab, Adv. Kbot Lab, Krog Gantry, Vehicle Plant, Adv. Vehicle Plant, ....., Shipyard, Sub Pen, Adv. Shipyard.

For the other stuff, IMO economy related things on top, metal then energy, factories, and defences at the end, of course, land in first part and sea in second of build list.

Dunno if that is the statisticaly best order but at least it's in some order.

About FARK and Necro: I've added to the confusion a bit by giving them more T1 economy stuff, as for fast base resurrection after a raid, you can't start by making Moho Mines, but the list is somewhat in order, economy first, then defences, then kbot labs (well, they're kbots so it's kinda logical) and nano tower.
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
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Re: Build option layout

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

Its here if any one wants to experiment on what i got so far.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tbkh83aim40da6k

DNW
Kbot Lab, Adv. Kbot Lab, Krog Gantry, Vehicle Plant, Adv. Vehicle Plant, ....., Shipyard, Sub Pen, Adv. Shipyard.
yeah that seems best actually imo. I think because of what it builds i placed it with the end game stuff.

DNW
About FARK and Necro: I've added to the confusion a bit by giving them more T1 economy stuff, as for fast base resurrection after a raid, you can't start by making Moho Mines
That doesnt quite feel right to me. The rez ability is a very powerful attribute and the first thing ide do is rez some energy building, not build some mex. But if its there already, and no one has asked to take it out, then why should i presume as much to prune it out.

Jools
Also, necro used to be the only unit capable of resurrection. Would be actually quite cool to revert to that; it would make arm and core a bit different again.
As a core player that would really piss me off, roflmao. Thats my best chance of getting your Raven!!! :lol:

Ow and no one noticed i accidentally added the nano to the com build menu in the pic :oops:
babbles
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Re: Build option layout

Post by babbles »

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
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Re: Build option layout

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

wow thats a big list. Definitely needs updating, but yes allot of stuff there is in the search of perfection.
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Jools
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Re: Build option layout

Post by Jools »

Ok, I will try to respond to this list, albeit it is a bit old.:
Both decoy D guns need to look like real D guns, the starting animation is wrong it seems.
The Decoy still has a smaller starting beam of the D-Gun than the real commander, but I'm not sure the point is to make the Decoy behave exactly like the Commander, originally it was just a Decoy that looked like one. You can still easily spot a Decoy from a real Commander, and now there is also talk whether the Decoy should have a lower build speed like it used to have.
Mines need to be compeletly re done.
Not very specific and subjective. Mines have had their cloak cost increased by about 500% in latest patch, I personally think that's too much, but maybe it's a fix that works. Problem with mines are that they are very efficient when spammed a lot and people get upset when their brand new unit dies. Some have proposed removing the smallest mine, limiting the availability of mines per minelayer or making the mine clearer more efffective.
Fixed
Both T1 radars leave wreck when they self destruct.
Confirmed. Will try to fix.Fixed
Jethros and samsons sometimes don't shoot land targets automatically.
Don't know how to reproduce. I've seen that jethros, crashers, samsons and slashers sometimes wrongly target land units when there's an approaching atlas with a combomb. Maybe missile speed need to be faster?
Core Eraser and Arm Spector (Kbot jammers), once turned off no longer spin even when turned on.
Tested Spectre and Eraser and they now work, so it must have been fixed at some point.
Same problem with both faction Kbot radars.
Both Marky and Voyeur (kbot mobile radars) work.

Also Deleter and Jammer (vehicle radar jammers) work, but there is a problem with Seer (Arm vehicle mobile radar), it spins no matter if you turn it off or on. Core Informer on the other hand works flawlessly.

We will fix Arm Seer.Fixed
Arm vehicle jammer has no change betwen on/off animation, always spinning in upright position.
Arm Jammer does end its spinning when turned off.
Same problem for air labs and light carriers.
Fixed for all except core T1 airlab. It also won't spin its building pad
Arm vehicle jammer doesn't have a name, just "jammer", core missle frigate is just "Rocket Frigate".
Yes. By the same token, Monty Python has a chemist sketch called 'the chemist sketch'. It's a name that too.
No Tech 2 constructors can make sub pens.
50% Confirmed. Arm T2 sub can make sub pens, but not core. Should be fixed.Fixed
Stunner needs descrption changing or the EMP to actually work. - Fixed
I wanted to discuss this although it's marked fixed in that list. How about if we make the Arm Stunner to actually stun things? Would make the game more interesting.
Some defences are built packed up, while others popped up already (anni/dmm vs popups/viper).
All defences I tested (Anni, DDM, Viper, Ambusher, Toaster) were built packed down or immediately packed down on their own when built.
T2 construction subs need water radar next to standard radar in build menu.
Core has it, Arm's water radar is located at the end in build menu. Should be fixed but is a detail.Fixed
Core diplomat fires different rocket to the one in load animation.
Don't get this one. Diplomat fires its rockets. How are they wrong?
Core Diplomat build picture is also wrong.
Build picture is a bit different than the actual unit, and it's a bit ugly. I think the model was changed at some point.
Pelicans are seen as hovers even when walking (had *2 speed on icy run)
Confirmed. Pelicans have always been technically hovers, even in OTA. But they should not have double speed on that map. But currently, it's not possible to set the movement class to be different on land and on water, so I don't see how wee can fix this issue, other than some hacky way of switching units and making one unitdef for pelicans on land and another for pelicans at sea.

Also, when I thought about this: pelicans are amphibious units. Therefore, if map wants to give double speed to hovers (I think hovers = amphibious) then pelicans should have double speed. Maybe it's the map that needs to be fixed.
Pelicans aren't hit by torpedos.
Pelicans are now torpable. They are hit by both torpedos and depth charges now.
Many units have a "fight" button despite not having a weapon eg: Spy bots, construction units, minelayers, jammers, radars etc.
Confirmed for minelayer and jammer. Didn't find it for any radar.
Fixed
Some structures have "Wait", "Repeat" and "Stop" despite no need, eg fusion reactors.
Fixed
Core t2 air constructer makes +11 e, arm makes +12, same for t1, arm makes 5.5, core 5. - Problem?
Confirmed but not a problem. They are after all different units.
Light carriers have "Reclaim", "Restore" and "Repair", despite not being able to do any (unless a plane lands on them).
Fixed
DDM needs 3rd weapon for model.
DDM has 3 weapons:
weapon1=CORE_DOOMSDAY, Doomsday Weapon, range=1700
weapon2=CORFHLT_LASER, High Energy Laser, range=950
weapon3=CORE_LASERH1; High Energy Laser, range=890

I think both weapons 2 and 3 are green, so it may be hard to see which is which. Maybe we could make weapon 3 red instead.
Maybe apply CA style build menu for sea/land stuff, hard to know hovers can be built on water nevermind nanos and airpads
No way. There's a reason CA doesn't exist any more :)
Last edited by Jools on 30 Jan 2014, 20:32, edited 8 times in total.
babbles
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Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 02:30

Re: Build option layout

Post by babbles »

The missiles one was a problem that was fixed, and the diplomat one is due to a remodel, at the time the rockets fired models weren't completely changed, new model when launching but old model once fired, or vice versa.
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
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Re: Build option layout

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

Thanks for the testing and feedback Jools :-)
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Jools
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Re: Build option layout

Post by Jools »

Most issues on this list are now fixed in the svn. Updated the issues in the original list.
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