XTA future

[scifi]

well i agree with TMO and IK, but i disagree changes to the higher morphed levels, it takes a person experience and usage, to get to there, it should be rewarded.

morphed coms are OP cause they dgun live, and theyr dgun range is large.

But i think coms dguning goliaths and living isnt a bad idea, if the dgun range of morphed coms is reduced, then its ok its riskier you must get closer and have a jamer.

But its not that imba, dgun living is the issue here i think.

[TheMightyOne]

well i agree with TMO and IK, but i disagree changes to the higher morphed levels, it takes a person experience and usage, to get to there, it should be rewarded.

morphed coms are OP cause they dgun live, and theyr dgun range is large.

But i think coms dguning goliaths and living isnt a bad idea, if the dgun range of morphed coms is reduced, then its ok its riskier you must get closer and have a jamer.

But its not that imba, dgun living is the issue here i think.

when you start the game the com is the strongest thing on the map. when the game progresses and more powerful+ranged units are beeing produced coms power becomes relatively lower (they still have the D-key though). what we did with upgrades is allowing the coms to scale with the power they possess as the game progresses keeping them at the top of the "food chain" if you want to put it that way. and since you mentioned the costs those shouldnt actually increase. late game => better eco + more powerful untis => skills cost more. check any RPG, if you increase the level of a skill the cost to use it increases aswell.

[AF]

Actually I disagree, the commander was always a force to be reckoned with at any part of the game in the hands of a capable player.

Upgrades to the commander where added because supreme commander had them and we wanted the fancy feature because it sounded cool. Few opposed it, and most discussion was about what upgrades we would like to see and the actual implementation how to. In the end the implementation meant that a lot of what we would like never came to fruition and we ended up with a generic all round stats boost upgrade that gave a significant boost to what was already a dangerous unit in the right hands

Justifying commander upgrades as they are with reasoning derived from hindsight is foolish. Upgrades are broken. Upgrades are horribly broken, and now were going as far as deluding ourselves as to why we added them at all.

If this were any other unit we would have removed the feature or drastically changed it's upgrade.

At most I think a commander upgrade should be a choice towards the end that gives a trade off. I propose we replace the system with the following:


The player can choose one of these upgrades, and only one at a time:

• An upgrade to the commanders laser to that of the Zeus/panther weapon
• A build power boost
• Extra resource generation
• A weak flak cannon

The commander can then morph back to the generic form and into another but at cost. No 10 different boosts at the same time, just one significant one that needs thought and suites different play styles.

[pintle]

Changing com weapon with morph is a terribad idea, would ruin 1v1 even more, as would giving com AA (its not about the dps its about the 3k hp).

Morph should, Imo have a clear argument made for it, and what it would add. I want to know specifically why it should be included, for all the balance headaches it brings with it.

[scifi]

well i agree with TMO and IK, but i disagree changes to the higher morphed levels, it takes a person experience and usage, to get to there, it should be rewarded.

morphed coms are OP cause they dgun live, and theyr dgun range is large.

But i think coms dguning goliaths and living isnt a bad idea, if the dgun range of morphed coms is reduced, then its ok its riskier you must get closer and have a jamer.

But its not that imba, dgun living is the issue here i think.

when you start the game the com is the strongest thing on the map. when the game progresses and more powerful+ranged units are beeing produced coms power becomes relatively lower (they still have the D-key though). what we did with upgrades is allowing the coms to scale with the power they possess as the game progresses keeping them at the top of the "food chain" if you want to put it that way. and since you mentioned the costs those shouldnt actually increase. late game => better eco + more powerful untis => skills cost more. check any RPG, if you increase the level of a skill the cost to use it increases aswell.

hm what i ment is you need experience to morph, so you actualy need to use the com to morph to higher levels, dgun flash llts e.t.c.. to actualy be able to morph to the next level.

What i can get from this conversation is that the first morph should be altered, since early game as you said it yourself doesnt have units with large range e.tc.... that can counter coms that easily.

So First morph what should be changed about it, for example babbles uses a first morphed com to dgun early units to hold while he gets a t2 or just a t1 spam, he can then dgun a krog or goliath he doesnt uses a 4 or 5 level commander to do this, this should be changed i mean for the game to progress in a steadly maner, as the eco increases the player should be obligied to morph the com so that it can be used later ingame, not just use what he has from the start.

Though this not hapens the commander stays at the top of the food chain since the first minute. Making the morph levels more important and diferentiated could be good.

So what you think should be done to the coms, lesser range???. Dgun cooldown isnt good imo,(this takes a lot of the fun when dguning). Reducing the radar of the morphed com, so that you actualy must scout!!!!!! and make radars to detect mines e.t.c...(more suport units)

This without changing mutch

For more drastic changes i agree totaly with AF

At most I think a commander upgrade should be a choice towards the end that gives a trade off. I propose we replace the system with the following:


The player can choose one of these upgrades, and only one at a time:

* An upgrade to the commanders laser to that of the Zeus/panther weapon
* A build power boost
* Extra resource generation
* A weak flak cannon

[Gota]

Morph was a LOL feature...come on...
Why does the commander need to morph?at the beginning the commander is just a very powerful unit at late game its a very powerful unit plus cloak which is well worth it and allows it to dgun huge amounts of units or just deter any head on attack.

ATM there is no room for morph.
In supcom the maps are much bigger and the commanders are just a slight support unit at the beginning but it can easy be overwhelmed because there are usually way more units and way more moving space in Supcom games.
Adding morph was a mistake,period.
If you want morphs make the initial commander weaker.
Not only is it bad for gameplay but its also silly to add more weapon when the commander already has the most powerful weapon in the game.

Want make XTA good again? Remove all the lol features like the Com morphs and the sea balance oh and plz nerf the scout hp but buff their DPS so that other scouts can kill scouts before those can devastate half of your mexes and wind gens.

[babbles]

oh and plz nerf the scout hp but buff their DPS so that other scouts can kill scouts before those can devastate half of your mexes and wind gens.

[raaar]

Still think you are barking at the wrong door.

3k hp and a 100 dps weapon isn't that strong. It'll get overrun by half a dozen microed peewees early game or one or two tier2 units.

The problem with the commanders isn't the morph, it's the cloaking together with the low cooldown 1hit kill dgun.

Imo its ok if the dgun can be used to assassinate a single powerful unit like a heavy turret, a goliath, or a krogoth. Single, not 3 plus half a dozen nearby units in a few seconds...

Increasing com blast damage against other coms to prevent living will encourage offensive com-bombing.

About giving com anti air, or the ability to build light anti air, it makes sense, but xta air is screwed imo. Air units should be more expensive, and more controllable (controllable like ota air, which was op because it had too much bang for the buck, especially tier2 fighters). Xta air units wander into enemy defenses at mid-late game too easily (where's the micro in that?) , and at early game they pack too strong a punch for what they cost (with the price of half a dozen ground units, you get enough bombers to kill the enemy plant in one strike..).

[knorke]

oh and plz nerf the scout hp but buff their DPS so that other scouts can kill scouts before those can devastate half of your mexes and wind gens.

that sounds good but it should not get to the point that if some scouts meet each other they instant explode each other...

Why cant somebody who knows modding make a new xta version with the obvious changes?
ie I think everybody agrees that dgun & live is stupid?

[Jools]

here is my reasoning:

---

why was dgun introduced? the com is the most important unit, it has to have some defence mechanism. on the other hand it was the com who was supposed to stop the biggest threat in the game, krog (which were much more common back in the days). but now, coms are NOT your secret, precious weapon, they are your main force of descruction.
discuss.

The original TA didn't have a Krogoth, yet the commander has had a d-gun all from the beginning, even without a delay, so there must be something wrong in that reasoning.

[AF]

tbh any commander upgrade should be a specialisation not a buff. Any plain add on buff is going to be harder to balance. Specialisation should be a trade off, e.g. better weapon for less build power.

My proposal:

• Halve T1 scout health
• Remove current morphing
• Remove Dgun to live regardless of commander health
• Add a commander morph to a version with 1.4x the build power
• Add a commander morph to a version with advanced radar
• Add a morph to return to vanilla commander

Are we agreed on trying that? Also what is to be done with the t1 subpen

[babbles]

Also what is to be done with the t1 subpen

imo:

• Make it tech 1.5 (like hovers/seaplane)
• Replace T1 sub con with T2
• Give T2 sub con u/w tidal making ability + normal u/w mex
• Add Sub killers to it, nerf them and retitle them
• Add Croc/Titon/Gimp (and pelican to hovers)

Not sure about Kamis, but I reckon making the lab 1.5 would make them not as viable and wtf pwn as they'd take some time to get up.

Btw is sub targetting fixed? I remember in 8.1 it was woeful and used 'em today, seemed pretty bad.

I think Noruas wanted to make Sub Pen indepdent, as in, the only thing that was able to make Subs...

[AF]

That sounds reasonable

[manolo_]

just an idea: how about a expensive hover that could destroy subs, also the whole sub-lab should be rebalanced. but i dont like the idea of completly removing com-morphing. i think it made xta really special. i dont want a 1man-army, but the morph should be useful and i still like my idea (years ago) with special morphing (fight, eco,water,...). maybe a air-com could build lvl1 fighters and scouts (just a quick idea). what do u think about these landing ships. i like them (really useless, but cool :D )

[Jools]

I agree with manolo: don't remove the morphing, just the d-gun and live thing.

[pintle]

I think a big thing which affects the early game viability of com morphing at present is the rate of resource generation: it pays for itself pretty quickly.

AF's suggestions more morph seem pretty sound.

As for scouts, I have been saying for a while that I would like to see them with less hp, but quite a bit faster.

Babs you didn't mention the lololhp/targetting priority of the minelayer sub!

[AF]

It would be for the community to discuss how to proceed with morph after the changes are made to decide what additional forms the commander can morph to, until then, let's stick to the safer form which are useful but have little chance of upsetting things.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

Morph was a LOL feature...come on...
Why does the commander need to morph?at the beginning the commander is just a very powerful unit at late game its a very powerful unit plus cloak which is well worth it and allows it to dgun huge amounts of units or just deter any head on attack.

ATM there is no room for morph.
In supcom the maps are much bigger and the commanders are just a slight support unit at the beginning but it can easy be overwhelmed because there are usually way more units and way more moving space in Supcom games.
Adding morph was a mistake,period.
If you want morphs make the initial commander weaker.
Not only is it bad for gameplay but its also silly to add more weapon when the commander already has the most powerful weapon in the game.

Want make XTA good again? Remove all the lol features like the Com morphs and the sea balance oh and plz nerf the scout hp but buff their DPS so that other scouts can kill scouts before those can devastate half of your mexes and wind gens.

Agreement

[AF]

What kind of nerf to vanilla commander are we talking?

[Gota]

inb4