Most confusing part of Spring:1944?

[Nemo]

Hey all. I'm writing tutorials, and I want to get some idea of what people think are the most confusing/difficult to learn parts of the game.

You can pick up to 3 items on the list.

Thanks!

[Regret]

Random bits: what to do on start, what are good start builds, whats the flash of s44, all infantry icons look similar, economy

[pintle]

After I got through the initial noobing about learning the basic dynamics stage, I found myself bewildered by the armour options.

I still have pretty much no clue which tank is good for what, hence my specialised inf/guns/air builds; I just don't know which tanks fulfil which roles!

This is even worse in deployment, where there are not even any tooltips, unless you place the unit and then self d it (a newbie would have no idea they could do this)

[CarRepairer]

whats the flash of s44,

lol.

After I got through the initial noobing about learning the basic dynamics stage, I found myself bewildered by the armour options.

I still have pretty much no clue which tank is good for what, hence my specialised inf/guns/air builds; I just don't know which tanks fulfil which roles!

This is even worse in deployment, where there are not even any tooltips, unless you place the unit and then self d it (a newbie would have no idea they could do this)

Soon you'll be able to instantly access info on any unit in the battlefield/buildmenu and see a listing of its stats and a description of its role.

[pintle]

Soon you'll be able to instantly access info on any unit in the battlefield/buildmenu and see a listing of its stats and a description of its role.

<3

[Neddie]

As long as it can be altered eventually to fit into the full GUI.

People primarily complain about icons, which I am going to differentiate further.

For things that a tutorial might actually help, the top three complaints are tanks/vehicles, starting builds/structures and suppression. However, I would also look at supply; they generally don't complain about it because it isn't an essential for play and it is more subtle, but they need to know.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

combat is probably the most confusing part.
noobs dont realise things like
1) reduced damage prone?
2) grenades?
3) regen if not hurt for so long?
4) supression?
5) focus fire?
6) partisan rape ooh shiiii-
7) countering mortar/sniper/gun/anything
8 ) not just getting rolled over by a huge horde of smg

if they manage to last past the infantry bit then they have the joys of air
1) air dosnt seem to acheive much
2) air only has one bomb?

or the infinite question marks of armour combat

unfortunately, all the above is known as 'playing the game' and can only really be learnt by the application of repeated ownings

[Gota]

Unless it is a very good and carefull simulation in which case people will get less confused.

[hoijui]

most of the few games i played so far were pretty much infantry only.
The most confusing thing for me is supply. Infantry uses supply, but only little, and only if outside of supply area, and if inside, generates supply slowly... but not all infantry, eg. mortars only use (or just use more?)
Can infantry still fire when supply is 0? only if inside or also if outside of supply range?

[JohannesH]

Unless it is a very good and carefull simulation in which case people will get less confused.

Not necessarily, most people dont have such knowledge of real WW2 combat tactics that very realistic gameplay would be instinctive.

[Nemo]

most of the few games i played so far were pretty much infantry only.
The most confusing thing for me is supply. Infantry uses supply, but only little, and only if outside of supply area, and if inside, generates supply slowly... but not all infantry, eg. mortars only use (or just use more?)
Can infantry still fire when supply is 0? only if inside or also if outside of supply range?

This is what I expected from this poll, mostly

For INFANTRY:
In supply zone + logistics = 130% normal firing rate, no drain.

Out of supply zone + logistics = 100% firing rate, drain.

Anywhere - logistics = 70% firing rate, drain (not that the drain matters).

For TANKS/VEHICLES/GUNS:
In supply + logistics = if they are not at full ammo, they will load up (using your logistics to do so; reloading one round = -10 or whatever logistics).

Out of supply zone + logistics = no effect on units with ammo. They will fire until they run out of ammo, then they will stop firing.

Anywhere - logistics = units will fire until they run out of ammo, then stop firing, and cannot reload until you get more.

[CarRepairer]

For INFANTRY:
In supply zone + logistics = 130% normal firing rate, no drain.

Out of supply zone + logistics = 100% firing rate, drain.

This is very confusing to me. Why would they drain when not in zone and not drain when they are in zone? It's like the opposite of tanks.

[Nemo]

Think about it as a more abstracted "logistical" scenario. Infantry are harder to support with ammo (they don't carry all that much on their person) when they're far from supply dumps, while tanks/vehicles have an internal storage that they carry around.

Or in other words...if they have access to a giant pile of bullets (more bullets than they'll ever use in the length of one of our games), they can fire faster, and don't require any special 'logistical' attention to provide with bullets. Tanks, on the other hand, just need filling up with big shells.

[CarRepairer]

Think about it as a more abstracted "logistical" scenario. Infantry are harder to support with ammo (they don't carry all that much on their person) when they're far from supply dumps, while tanks/vehicles have an internal storage that they carry around.

Or in other words...if they have access to a giant pile of bullets (more bullets than they'll ever use in the length of one of our games), they can fire faster, and don't require any special 'logistical' attention to provide with bullets. Tanks, on the other hand, just need filling up with big shells.

The problem is as a nub mind it's easier to just picture game notions as tangible things. When I see that tanks resupply in a zone and your bar goes down, it appears that purely logistics = ammo (straightforward and understable to newb). Then you say that in the case with infantry, logistics = the capacity of distribution of an infinite supply of bullets. So I have to switch my thinking.

In other words, I have to imagine that sometimes the bar is a pile of shells, and sometimes the bar is how many magic leprechauns can carry bullets to my soldiers (sorry for the colorful example).

I assume it all makes perfect sense to the learned war buffs, but not as much to newbs like moi.

[Neddie]

Ah, but you see, logistics = logistics, which happens to include ammunition and the supply thereof. I'll admit, it is a little more complex though considerably more logical than more... specific and materialistic resource systems.

We should explain it, it bears explaining, and it isn't more difficult for you than most people - the tradition is, simplified inputs with little reflection in the output form the economy of a game, but these are mostly if not entirely material and time. It takes a shift of perspective to handle more complex concepts, which arguably can only be beneficial but nonetheless may be difficult.

Thank you for reminding us, Car.

[Gota]

If your gonna make A tutorial I suggest a video tutorial.
You'll get a lot more people watching a video tutorial or a tutorial replay that comes along with the game than people READing a written one.

[Nemo]

These are going to be playable tutorials.

[yuritch]

An exception to the inf logistics use are the mortars. While still being inf, they use the 'normal' ammo system (as described for tanks). So that means they can't shoot at all if their ammo is depleted.

[pintle]

An exception to the inf logistics use are the mortars. While still being inf, they use the 'normal' ammo system (as described for tanks). So that means they can't shoot at all if their ammo is depleted.

also true in the case of pack howitzers

[hoijui]

ok :D
thanks for the explaining :D
though.. it is hard to remmeber, even when you heard all of this once.
i like thas system btw, and would not at all like the more simplistic model of ammo.
I think, the best way to make ppl understand it/learn it (maybe in addition to a tutorial), is having some sort of visual feedback.
Maybe a widget, that adds a slight glow to units, or underlays them with a colored plate or something. For example:
infantry style logistics units:
In supply zone + logistics: glow green
Out of supply zone + logistics: glow yellow
Anywhere - logistics: glow purple

For TANKS/VEHICLES/GUNS:
In supply + logistics: glow blue
Out of supply zone + logistics: glow orange
Anywhere - logistics: glow red

default on the widgets, so noobs would use it, and pros could have it off.