Squad makeups

[1v0ry_k1ng]

At the moment the american rifle squad comes with a free AT trooper.

this is a poor idea because most players just ram 2x american brax on 1x rifle repeat, safe in the knowlege that they will have sufficent AT around to one shot MG nests or vehicles when they first appear. there is no element of risk - no gamble between skipping on early AT squad for more infantry. Im all for assault squads having special weapons- the drawbacks of an entirely short range squad seems to demand it- but not the overly spammed rifle squads.

[Nemo]

Similarly, would you remove MG42s from german rifle squad, or PTRDs/commissars from soviet squads?

Edit: to be fair, the commissar in soviet squad has at least one vocal opponent (journ), so you wouldn't be alone on that one. I wouldn't mind reexamining the squad make ups (given that MG42 in a squad vs a bazooka in a squad are very different animals), but the game is in a pretty good place on the whole right now (at least, that's my sense of it), so I want to play pretty conservatively with things as fundamental as this.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

no

the PTRD is not really useful enough to be built intentionally, and tbh instead functions instead to nerf the larger russian rifle squad (less firepower vs inf early game) although having said that, one of mine gibbed the wasp journ lent you so I guess they have one use. no issue with it.

the MG42 works really well at defining germanys playstyle- even the most agressive player is handicapped by the smaller, weaker rifle squads and is forced to use the machineguns to compensate for his weaker force. I dont really see the MG42 as a buff for the squad, as the squad is correspondingly smaller to compensate.

The American rifle squad was previously perfectly effective. It could outgun the other nations squads if it could close the range quickly without being pinned. the addition of the bazooka does not change its effectiveness vs infantry- it simply means a US player does not need to build AT squads.

[Nemo]

Mostly I'm dubious about US firepower. I agree that the bazooka doesn't do nearly as much to define their playstyle as the MG42 does for germany, though.

I suppose I could remove the bazooka and buff the BARs a bit, so they can be used to suppress more effectively while the garands close in.

Also, commissar in the soviet squad is probably a worthwhile discussion. Journ fervently hates it; it does make anti-commissar tactics massively more difficult to perform, since they're basically everywhere (also lending soviets a huge buildpower advantage). Having played against soviets recently, I get a similar sense to that of the US squad; you can essentially just spam russian rifle squad without needing to spend BT on other things.

That said, it may gimp their expansion too much if you expect commissars to be produced independently. Of course, if we switch back to independent production, they can capture flags faster/be sneakier.

[Neddie]

I might take another rifle out of the squad rather than ditch the Bazooka... the US infantry literally had them all over the place, since they had problems at various points supplying and using their mechanized elements. I still built actual AT squads as US, but I stopped playing them to give GBR more testing of late.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

mixing the AT role with the AP role simply means mass production creates a single squad type capable of dealing with all enemies- ie, spambait

the bazooka is of negliable use early game, in effect giving US the same firepower it had before VS inf
later game, when it does become useful, you have 3-4 hanging around the frontline ready to repell the first t60 without any need to think ahead- how is that a good mechanic?

im all for squads containing lots of diffrent units - but only units of the same role. mixed role squads simply dilute the need for there to be diffrent kinds of squad in the first place
saktoth would explain this better than me, because he can rant for over 9000 pages about how multirole squads are bad for gameplay (he eventually convinced wz to remove the free AA trooper from inf squads in IW, for example).

also, im pretty sure removing an extra dude from the US squad would leave them dangerously undergunned vs british+russian start squads- they are already outranged enough for 1-2 dudes to be focus fired off before the group can return fire

[Neddie]

Except the cloaking Bazooka man is capable of getting close and taking out/suppressing a number of the enemy. More micro-intensive but not impossible to salvage.

I personally was considering having various rifle squads with different specialists that you don't get to choose manually... you get another BAR/Bazooka/Flamethrower/Mortar, unpredictably. Either that or moving the Bazooka extra to the SMG squad.

No two infantry men on a side have the same role at present. I assume you're arguing for role groupings. I'll PM you on some other side notes I don't want to discuss here.

[Evil4Zerggin]

On the occasions when I play, I usually play USSR. PTRD is marginally useful; they don't have the accuracy to be good against infantry, but in large numbers they can take out halftracks and such if you can get them close enough--in one game against Tobi I took out two or three halftracks with PTRD while waiting for my first SU-76 to come out. (To be fair, he probably could have saved them if he had kept at long range.) It certainly won't stop a determined attack though, unlike the bazooka where the enemy has no idea where it is and it can apply surprise pwnage against tanks.

Free commissars means that I pretty much never have to build scouts or engineers. My crazy commissar idea is to only allow them to build partisan shacks; they are political officers after all, not construction engineers. Then USSR would start with an engineer or two instead of the extra commissar.

[Neddie]

That reminds me, when you and Nemo started considering that I began to mull over some other Commissar only buildings, like a cloaked but tiny supply structure (Cache), a garrisonable pit to hide infantry in (Netted Dugout), etcetera. For future addition.