The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions - Page 3

The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

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Floris
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Floris »

As a sidenote: I dont want to have anything to do with springrts.com (administration). The engine became spiritually depleted and currently dead again because of it. My good intentions, contributions and ownership of a project using the infra was valued as just a mod. Aperantly I wasnt considered/valued as a game-developer. Its understandable as well, regarding how springrts.com started, as a TA demoplayer-mod. Not held back by legalities and questions of ownership. Just entusiatic devs exploring possibilities and love for the Total Annihilation game. SpringRTS enigine is great for what it is. Its good intentions and love for rts games, but it doesnt have a culture of respect for gamedevs. They become enablers of what basicly can be explained as piracy. BA long ago tried to grow out of it by starting the BAR project i suppose. But even when that was cancelled/bled dry, I still tried to make the best of what BA is and could become. BA10 wasnt valued/appreciated. The importance of control over hosts and culture by players was what made my venture with BA fail. I just see this as a product of the environment of springrts. It's just sad seeing your work and good intentions not be valued.
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MasterBel
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by MasterBel »

abma wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 12:09
also, 103.0 isn't banned on the official server, its just banned for large games.
I could write an essay about this, but I'll put it simply. Ignore the misinformation and the people trying to guilt-trip you over things you didn't do. Just look at it pragmatically for one second, go back to your original reasoning.

Spring versions >104 have been banned for a while, for the primary purpose of moving people to newer versions (to encourage development).

Has this had the intended effect of increasing adoption of newer versions?
If so – say so, clearly, publish your reasoning and stand by your word vindicated.
If not – again, please say so, clearly, and issue an apology and revoke the ban.
Either way, we learned something.
If you're keeping them banned because you're sick of them – say so. If you're afraid of admitting the decisions you make, maybe you should be making a different one.
Ares wrote:
20 Jun 2020, 17:50
Your definition of "Upgrading Springs GL version" includes deprecating LUA. Zerver already did that.
Not true.
Ares wrote:
20 Jun 2020, 17:50
Edit: didn't post this here every time I write a message it gets removed from original thread by BAR admins
Not true. It's the Spring forum admins who are moving your post.
Pizzy wrote:
20 Jun 2020, 17:31
Please, dont kill BA.
BA is not going to die. If it was, it would have been dead already. The admins here have no power over what SpringFightClub does in its own jurisdiction. It uses a legacy lobby, a legacy server, and a legacy engine. Copies of the binaries of all of these are freely accessible and copies are stored by SpringFightClub itself.
BA is not going to die.
Even if nothing else, BA 10.24, running on Fabrice's hosts on the official server is even now gaining players. Slowly, but surely. I have no idea how.
Ares wrote:
20 Jun 2020, 15:13
Actually if you discount the votes of people who are working on BAR related projects or who have joined the BAR discord you will find the number of people speaking out against the proposal outnumber the number that support it.
I believe Ares is to be counted in those who have joined the BAR discord.
Silentwings wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 12:21
Additionally ... Mac
Apple stopped supporting opengl
More useful in this scenario would be to say "Apple stopped updating/maintaining opengl support"
Silentwings wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 12:21
However for years it has been possible to buy a less mad computer, at a less mad price, or if you really must buy something shiny white and madly overpriced, you can at least hack a bit and run a less mad operating system on it in a dual boot. Not doing any of the above and still trying to play Spring will be considered mad.
I must jest: Firstly, I am most definitely mad. Secondly, my machine is not white (but it's shiny!). It's also not that overpriced, and I do have a linux dualboot. (Unfortunately I don't have the storage space to use Bootcamp)
abma wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 12:13
just use bootcamp: https://support.apple.com//boot-camp
Posts like these honestly just don't help.

But posts like Floris's do.
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abma
Spring Developer
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by abma »

MasterBel wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 13:51
Has this had the intended effect of increasing adoption of newer versions?
If so – say so, clearly, publish your reasoning and stand by your word vindicated.
If not – again, please say so, clearly, and issue an apology and revoke the ban.
it revealed that several autohosts where unmaintained, reduced duplicate bug reports about bugs in 103.0 and it leaded to no more crashes of large games. yeah, we lost some mac players, but i can't say it was a bad decission: IMHO forcing 104.0 for large games had a small benefit over not doing it: because of doing it A LOT of stuff improved on uberserver i.e..
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ThinkSome
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by ThinkSome »

What have you done about the unmaintained autohosts? There are several autohosts that are hosting undownloadable engine versions. Does that not cast a bad light on the spring project?

Either remove them off the server ({metal,common}_server) or re-upload/rebuild the versions (EvoRTS rooms). But please do something.
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MasterBel
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by MasterBel »

abma wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 14:07
IMHO forcing 104.0 for large games had a small benefit over not doing it: because of doing it A LOT of stuff improved on uberserver i.e..
Improvements re: moderation? In which case… functionally what you did is banned an entire community because of the troublemakers in it. Worth it? You think so. Honestly, I don't miss all the arguing that went on.
abma wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 14:07
reduced duplicate bug reports about bugs in 103.0 and it leaded to no more crashes of large games.
I mean I do remember when these were a thing, and I wasn't even a dev :lol:
I could imagine that there are other ways of achieving this, but none so easy as the ban.
Such as, maybe, clearly marking older spring versions as "UNSUPPORTED ENGINE VERSION: DO NOT REPORT BUGS" in SpringLobby.
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Silentwings
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Silentwings »

More useful in this scenario would be to say "Apple stopped updating/maintaining opengl support"
This is a fair point, but for completeness you should add - the newest OpenGL version that Apple supports was released *in 2010*, and support for even that has now been deprecated for 2 years. That's dead, Jim, with or without extra naunce.

Remember these guys?
https://bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/the-b ... of-2010/1/
https://bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/the-b ... of-2010/4/
Nope, me neither, my memory is good but its not that good.
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Ares
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Ares »

Handing over the BA domain to Ares
Floris BA is a community not just one person, please don't confuse any personal issue you have with me, with a group of hundreds of people.

Firstly, you wouldn't be giving me anything, its a community site and many BA players contributed to that site in the past and I was not one of them. Historically BA infra has been passed down through the community and you are the only person making an exception to this. You just requested your "balanced annihilation" developer title be removed, it seems that you do not want to be involved with the game anymore. I understand you don't want to do it for me, but don't do this to people you once called friends.

Sabutai and Zorro offered to host and stay well out of any drama and simply want to play their favorite game - something you can respect as a former BA leader. Passing down the domain will let you move forwards with BAR with a clean slate and lift a load off your chest, rather than adding to this needless drama.
Last edited by Ares on 21 Jun 2020, 15:09, edited 2 times in total.
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FLOZi
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by FLOZi »

Ares wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 15:03
Handing over the BA domain to Ares
Floris BA is a community not just one person, please don't confuse any personal issue you have with me, with a group of hundreds of people.

Firstly, you wouldn't be giving me anything, its a community site and many BA players contributed to that site in the past and I was not one of them. Historically BA infra has been passed down through the community and you are the only person making an exception to this. You just requested your "balanced annihilation" developer title be removed, it seems that you do not want to be involved with the game anymore. I understand you don't want to do it for me, but don't do this to people you once called friends.

Sabutai and Zorro offered to host and stay well out of any drama and simply want to play their favorite game - something you can respect as a former BA leader. Passing down the domain will let you move forwards with BAR with a clean slate and lift a load off your chest, rather than adding to this needless drama.
More like this please. I don't have a stake in the BA furore, but this was clear, cogent and civil.
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Floris
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Floris »

"its a community site and many BA players contributed to that site in the past"

balancedannihilation.com didnt even exist before ba10's development, see waybackmachine:
http://web.archive.org/web/2019*/balanc ... lation.com

Forb created the site for me, and ptaq helped creating news articles.

I handed the site code to Shox when he became the BA dev.
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Ares
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Ares »

You understand how behaving this way makes it look like you are only doing this to cause harm to the game you used to play.

You have a choice between continuing down this path of hatred, or the option of forgiveness and reconciliation. Be the leader the BA community used to look up to, don't let an act of hatred become your legacy, you can still heal everything.
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Floris
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Floris »

I already gave answer but granted a bit crypticly: its not up to me.
I handed BA over to bluestone and shox. While Shox isnt around I think, Silentwings (Bluestone) is.
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Ares
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Ares »

So you agree to transfer the domain https://www.balancedannihilation.com/ to Sabutai with Bluestones permission?
Last edited by Ares on 21 Jun 2020, 16:00, edited 1 time in total.
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by very_bad_soldier »

abma wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 12:09
it was apple who removed opengl apis and so broke spring.
Hm, it is a bit ironical that you see it that way, no? Apple dropped support for a (in their opinion) legacy API and wants to move on. How about updating Spring to a newer API like Metal or Vulkan? Of course you could hire someone to do it for you... well, sounds vaguely familiar, no?

I admit the situation is not 100% the same but similar enough in my opinion...
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Floris
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Floris »

so... to say it even more clear: i still think BA ownership is up for debate, and I'll hand over the domain to who becomes the official owner/lead of it.
Just dont debate the actual ownership with me, that lies with the current owners.

Also I didnt want to enforce 103 restriction, its stupid, I resigned because of that shitshow. All I wanted back then was BA to be on its latest iteration wich was ba10.2x, and BA9 become its own fork with their own branding and devs like Phoenix Annihilation aimed to.

I guess all you have to do is kiss the right lips, consider mine kissed regarding the domain.
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Ares
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Ares »

that lies with the current owners.
SilentWings, as current official owner of BA, will you allow BA to have their own website from Flow?
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Silentwings
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Silentwings »

will you allow BA to have their own website from Flow?
I couldn't care less, knock yourselves out. I only even knew it existed because of the last time you had an argument over it. The limit of my interest extends to viewtopic.php?p=594466#p594466 and even that's generous imo.
How about updating Spring to a newer API like Metal or Vulkan? Of course you could hire someone to do it for you
Or you could and so, thanks to the wonders of the GPL, could anyone else. Best of luck, I don't see it happening.
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Ares
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Ares »

Ok thank you to Flow and Bluestone for helping the BA community on this one, we hope to see you on official server and the new engine version ASAP.
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ThinkSome
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by ThinkSome »

I'm looking forward to see Ares and his crew, but mostly Mando, port SpringRTS to Vulkan/Metal.

After all,
Ares wrote:
19 Jun 2020, 23:18
Mando is the best programmer in all of Tokyo and he saved BA, he is a hero and he cares more about Spring than anyone
Then you could use 104+ and this drama would finaly end.
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by very_bad_soldier »

Silentwings wrote:
21 Jun 2020, 16:29
How about updating Spring to a newer API like Metal or Vulkan? Of course you could hire someone to do it for you
Or you could and so, thanks to the wonders of the GPL, could anyone else. Best of luck, I don't see it happening.
I believe you misunderstood my point... It was about abma claiming that "Apple broke spring" by deprecating OpenGL while at the same time spring deprecated engine <104 and "broke" many games without seeing any problem.
Was meant as a pointer to "taste your own medicine" but well, stuff gets a bit lame when you have to explain it I admit...
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Peet
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch -- "BA" questions

Post by Peet »

:regret:
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