BA dev team's attitude towards ... -- split -- (FAs changes)

BA dev team's attitude towards ... -- split -- (FAs changes)

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Forboding Angel
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BA dev team's attitude towards ... -- split -- (FAs changes)

Post by Forboding Angel » 29 Nov 2018, 23:32

Duck wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 23:19
Random unrelated insult too from person who did some harm to BA too, not related with a topic.
I did harm to BA? Prove it. BA's toxic community harmed it, not me. I simply updated the internals and dragged it kicking and screaming into modern spring engine and backend lua which was a fucking mountain of work.

I implemented some modOPTIONS that were off by default in order to test some ideas, in TEST VERSIONS OF BA.

The BA community's inability to comprehend the definition of the word "option" baffles me.

So once again:
I did harm to BA? Prove it.

Split from viewtopic.php?f=44&t=38572&p=588975#p588948 (Silentwings)
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Duck
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Post by Duck » 29 Nov 2018, 23:54

The BA community's inability to comprehend the definition of the word "option" baffles me.
Once again BA only alive because of community and some random dev from outside flaming us and making changes that big part of community doesn't like, forcing into something we don't want.
Your attitude towards us is awful, you got nothing to discuss here, you got no experience in playing BA or understanding it, so pls beat it to Evo RTS subforum and ask what yours community want.
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Post by Forboding Angel » 30 Nov 2018, 00:51

So basically, you have absolutely nothing to back up your assertions and don't actually know any real details or information, but are simply parroting what you have heard, Therefore, we can be legitimately fine with ignoring anything you have to say on that specific subject.
random dev from outside flaming us
So... the pot calls the kettle black once again? What a plot twist.
and making changes that big part of community doesn't like
What changes might those be? Be specific.
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Ares
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Post by Ares » 30 Nov 2018, 01:27

Forboding Angel wrote:
30 Nov 2018, 00:51
What changes might those be? Be specific.
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=35793 which eventually became BA 10
Last edited by Ares on 30 Nov 2018, 01:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Post by Forboding Angel » 30 Nov 2018, 01:39

Was any of that ever released in an INTENTIONAL production version? (Hint: No.)

Additionally, it was all hidden behind modoptions that must be toggled.
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Ares
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Post by Ares » 30 Nov 2018, 01:50

BA10 should be a modoption
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Post by Forboding Angel » 30 Nov 2018, 02:00

So should your ability to speak. And actually, that can be arranged. I'd be curious to see if your peers would vote to allow you to speak ingame.
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MasterBel
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Post by MasterBel » 30 Nov 2018, 03:26

Forb: You have made your point, please don't try to frutstrate yourself by trying to repeat it every time they don't listen. Those who have ears, let them hear. Don't shout at those who don't – you only waste your breath.
Also, people seem to react really badly to everything you say. Unfortunately it might be best if you just refuse to involve yourself in any future BA-related discussions, or at least any for the time being. If you know their insults are empty, just ignore them.
Duck wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 23:19
Asking a lot of answers that would take a lot of information that will cost time to find in logs and can't accept negative opinion because of that.
If they're bad in the past, so what. If they're bad in the present, we NEED to know. Every time something comes up, copy-paste it. If you care about BA you WILL do this. Unfortunately the claims you've made are far too general and the devs are TRYING. Give them something more to work with to get better, and give the moderators the evidence they need to discipline the BA Devs. Otherwise NOTHING will happen out of this.
Duck wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 23:19
I gave my opinion and reasonable arguments too and what I saw on discord and lobby that other players did too.
What you've said simply comes across as "This isn't BA anymore". If it was suitably constructive I would have copy-pasted it and made sure the devs paid attention. But, keeping it simple for the poor devs who are incapable of thinking straight: just give them ONE balance problem to solve right here and now?And then everyone will be able to see what happens with it. Better still, create a new thread for it, so discussion is easier. Go!
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Post by Forboding Angel » 30 Nov 2018, 03:32

MasterBel wrote:
30 Nov 2018, 03:26
Also, people seem to react really badly to everything you say.
I react badly to lies, misinformation, and half truths. If someone who falls in any of those 3 categories reacts badly, I couldn't care less. Troll or be an asshole to me and I will happily troll and be an asshole back.
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards ... -- split -- (FAs changes)

Post by Silentwings » 30 Nov 2018, 09:44

Fwiw, the full list of FAs commits can be found at https://github.com/Balanced-Annihilatio ... odingAngel, which seems to me like a quite accessible source of information.
Troll or be an asshole to me and I will happily troll and be an asshole back.
@all: Please avoid - regardless of who anyone thinks made the first aggressive post.
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards ... -- split -- (FAs changes)

Post by Duck » 30 Nov 2018, 10:51

Well afaik Forbs helped Floris with lightning and projectiles changes, some other effects too that already changed the balance. E.g. missiles behaviour change that had huge impact on the balance already. These modoptions are a joke too, so different from BA mechanics that it's ridiculous.
Problem with Frobs is that he disrespects BA players and thinks he knows better because is some dying game developer too. He should just stay silent, his opinion about BA is worthless, because like i said he doesn't understand it, so adding random changes even if it's a modoption is crazy.
Sadly i'm not used to lua code or game development, so i cant get much info from his commits. I could but again it costs time I don't have it.
But long time ago after Forbs "help" to BA i saw a conversation where Forbs tried to prove that his changes had no impact on balance, but Nix proved him wrong and denied all his harmless claims.
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[Fx]Doo
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards ... -- split -- (FAs changes)

Post by [Fx]Doo » 30 Nov 2018, 13:14

I initially posted this on the "letter to chris taylor" thread, movig it here since it seems more appropriate:


I think when you treat someone who went out of his way to provide improvements to BA like a duck, you should expect to be treated as a duck aswell.

AFAIK forb never forced his ideas on anyone. In fact you forced them on yourselves by acting like kids fighting over gossips rather than facts.

You want forb to stay out of BA. You're the cats summoning him in every BA related thread. Leave him out of this and fix your own issues.

Ares, you want BA balance with fixes? You instantly dismissed Shox's fork as soon as you seen it. Called it a fake. "It's BA 10, you can tell from the effects".
And you're lumping whole community with you every fucking time. "You killed BA" "You took BA away from community".
I'm sorry to tell you this, but it is a shared opinion among *some* players and not the sole opinion out there.
Finding a common ground should be important, and what the devs and us players should focus on, but to acheive that you (= players who believe BA 10 is globally hated) should at least acknowledge that each and everyone of us have our preferences, and that some of us have our own reason to prefer BA10/9 and that those reason are valid.
People who like BA9 aren't all "excessive" or "stubborn" and those who like BA 10 aren't all "retarded" and "one click noobs".

If you cannot see how everyone has their right to want something from BA, and only think of your ownself, you're just mirroring what behaviour you don't want to face from the devs, and nothing is acheived in order to bring community together.

I highly suggest that you have a look at Shox's fork, Absolut Annihilation, as it might give you an accurate vision of what "BA 1O with BA 9.46 unit and weapon stats" would be.

I also suggest that you all learn to be soecific about what you like/dislike about both versions of BA. Instead of the irrealistic "revert everything to BA 9.46" or "force BA 10" nonsense.
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards ... -- split -- (FAs changes)

Post by Ares » 30 Nov 2018, 14:15

After two years of testing, BA10 has been a failed experiment. It's finally time for the test to end and BA9 to move forward again.
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards ... -- split -- (FAs changes)

Post by Forboding Angel » 30 Nov 2018, 22:09

Duck wrote:
30 Nov 2018, 10:51
Well afaik Forbs helped Floris with lightning and projectiles changes
False. I implemented resources.lua and provided him with my generic CEG set that is designed to be easy to use to create your own effects. These effects are the default effects in evo. If you look at evo, you will see that they are entirely different. Floris did all that on his own. Fun fact, I even resisted his effects at first, but then he polished them and they look amazing now.
Duck wrote:
30 Nov 2018, 10:51
some other effects too that already changed the balance. E.g. missiles behaviour change that had huge impact on the balance already.
False. Floris did that because he wanted it to look good. I argued that the improvement in visuals wasn't worth the impact to functionality.
Duck wrote:
30 Nov 2018, 10:51
These modoptions are a joke too, so different from BA mechanics that it's ridiculous.
First off, BA wasn't always the way it is now. And BA is nothing like OTA, unlike what some of you claim. In fact, my modoptions implemented a lot of OTA style behavior. Regardless, they were defaulted to off, and were never released in an intentional version anyway. The point of having a git repo is being able to develop and test things, and specifically to be able to test ideas. As Rapid is incapable of working with branches, using a modoption within the game is the next best choice, because then it allows for online testing via test versions.
Duck wrote:
30 Nov 2018, 10:51
Problem with Frobs is that he disrespects BA players and thinks he knows better because is some dying game developer too.
I don't disrespect BA players in general. I disrespect people such as yourself and the rest of your little friends who run around using racial and homophobic slurs casually. I have zero respect for anyone like that. Respect is earned, and you and your ilk are in a negative deficit.
Duck wrote:
30 Nov 2018, 10:51
He should just stay silent, his opinion about BA is worthless, because like i said he doesn't understand it
That's interesting. You apparently aren't aware that at one point I was one of the better players. The only person I consistently lost to was Drexion. Noize and I used to have some fairly epic 1v1s back in the day. I've been playing OTA and various *A themed mods since 1997. I've been working on my own spring game since 2008 and in 2007 worked on my own little silly *A themed project. Before that I worked with Fang, smoth and others on EE.

Before that I made no less than 150 maps for spring. High quality terrain and textures that were unheard of at the time. Some of which had a lot of popularity in BA in the past (and a few that still do to some extent).

I have a lot of experience with the engine, how it functions, and how a change will have subtle effects. It's been a long road, but for someone to suggest that I don't know what I'm doing is naive at best, just plain idiotic at worst.
Duck wrote:
30 Nov 2018, 10:51
so adding random changes even if it's a modoption is crazy.
The whole point of using a modoption is to allow online testing without affecting the core game. If you can't understand this very simple concept, then you're a moron.
Duck wrote:
30 Nov 2018, 10:51
Sadly i'm not used to lua code or game development, so i cant get much info from his commits.
So basically, you have no idea wtf you're talking about. I already knew that, but it's entertaining to hear it from the horses mouth.
Duck wrote:
30 Nov 2018, 10:51
But long time ago after Forbs "help" to BA i saw a conversation where Forbs tried to prove that his changes had no impact on balance, but Nix proved him wrong and denied all his harmless claims.
You would need to provide specifics. There is a difference between a meaningful impact on balance and an impact that doesn't really have much sway. I was in general arguing for the latter. As a result, it's possible that the meta might shift a small amount, but if that shift results in a net positive for both gameplay and the meta, then it is a good thing.


*********************************************************************************

back to the "Harming BA" thing...

I spent a week or two slaving away to update BA to modern lua internals, and implementing tools for floris to use so that he wouldn't be left high and dry with new updated internals (There were several things BA was doing that wasn't easily compatible with newer internals).

After that, I continued to give my support and help whenever he needed it. I built a website for BA. I set up hosts for BA and went the extra step of making them so that floris, triton, doo and pta could operate them how they pleased without needing to ask me (except for new engines).

I continue to provide support to both of them (although it is much less needed at this point).

In-Line Edit: Oh, and I implemented a VASTLY improved and FIXED chickens into BA. You're welcome.

Your arrogance and idiocy has blinded you to the truth of the matter. You jumped on Ares bandwagon without even bothering to do some very simple and basic fact checking. You should be ashamed of yourself. YOU are the cancer that is killing BA, not I. If anything I tried to help keep BA alive. The funny thing is, I got tons of shit from the other gamedevs in this community for helping BA. Some very prominent people here were upset with me for helping to update it. I suppose they were of the mind that without outside help it would wither and die on an old engine version. I doubt it. We should all be so lucky.

You and the toxic elements of your community suck, you are a fucking disgrace. You should be ashamed of yourselves for not bothering to do even a modicum of research or fact checking. There are many in your community who are indeed good people and very pleasant. I have no quarrel with them, but I'll be damned if I sit idly by (like the engine devs and lobby moderators have done for the past 10 years) ignoring the toxicity that breeds itself in your community. If spring were a pair of underwear, you and your ilk are the bacon strips within.

Now, kindly, Get bent.
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards ... -- split -- (FAs changes)

Post by Duck » 01 Dec 2018, 11:28

Again one more useless post from Forbs, qouting just small part of my sentences, not even reading my full posts, just small parts, calling players cancers who cares about BA, trying to deny everything when you have 0 understanding about BA.. Even trying to deny that projectiles changed BA mechanics.. Do you even tried to play BA once? I bet not. Telling your backstory like it's important.. Just trying to showoff and it proves nothing. You are not part of the BA community, you should just step back and stop "helping" BA.
Problem with you is not that you want to help, I used to make articles why devs should help each other and why it's so important. Problem is that you pushing your ideas to game you can't understand. This is not dead game like Evo, this game might have future if it tries to evolve and move forwards, but ideas from outsiders like you isn't helping at all.
So basically, you have no idea wtf you're talking about. I already knew that, but it's entertaining to hear it from the horses mouth.
Like i said, I could i just don't have time to invest understanding lua better and check all the changes you did. Maybe one day when I'll get a lot of free time I'll fork BA and I'll stop complaining about devs like you hurting BA and forcing bad changes. Just random insult again.
But I checked some commits and i found this "Unify buildpower of all builders into a standard". Outsider implementing change that effects balance and BA mechanics. I'll take a better look at all changes later and I can bet that I'll find even more bad stuff you did to BA.
While i'm trying to have a conversation about BA changes you implemented you just trying to roast me and insult me. One more guy who can't accept negative opinions and just going in fights, disgrace as a developer.
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards ... -- split -- (FAs changes)

Post by [Fx]Doo » 01 Dec 2018, 14:16

Duck wrote:
01 Dec 2018, 11:28
Again one more useless post from Forbs, qouting just small part of my sentences, not even reading my full posts, just small parts, calling players cancers who cares about
=> I believe it was aimed at the players who keep aiming at him, not all the BA players. And honestly that is a minimal part of the community. If you guys have trouble seeing eye to eye, keep it among yourselves, don't involve a whole community in what is nothing more than a quarrel between a few people who have diverging opinions.
Duck wrote:
01 Dec 2018, 11:28
BA trying to deny everything when you have 0 understanding about BA.. Even trying to deny that projectiles changed BA mechanics..
=> Haven't seen him denying that. What he denies is the scale of the impact, which you are overestimating in my opinion, but which still exists (and i think Forb's claim is the same as mine here). And you are holding him responsible for this, but even in the case he would have been the one responsible for those changes (which isn't the case), these were mere suggestions and demonstrations of what could be acheive. The responsibility for keeping/denying those suggestions/changes lies with BA devs, not contributors. This goes for everything
Duck wrote:
01 Dec 2018, 11:28
Do you even tried to play BA once? I bet not.
=> I did play him quite a few times. Today he is mostly only casually playing BA, but that doesn't make his opinion worthless. You should remember that without the opinions of casual players and relatively new players, making BA a game that attracts and keeps its playerbase will be hard. And without an influx of players, i don't see how you will have BA survive. What is necessary is to ponderate the opinions with what knowledge of the game players have, but dismissing an opinion because someone isn't a hardcore BA player won't get you nowhere close to having a prospering game.
Duck wrote:
01 Dec 2018, 11:28
Telling your backstory like it's important.. Just trying to showoff and it proves nothing. You are not part of the BA community, you should just step back and stop "helping" BA.
=> Want the engine devs to stop supporting BA aswell? I mean, they have nothing to do with BA community, why should they bother "helping" BA. That is a twisted thought that will only bring chaos. Non BA players/devs can still have knowledge in particular matters that far surpass that of the BA community. Denying that is a huge loss imo.
Duck wrote:
01 Dec 2018, 11:28
Problem with you is not that you want to help, I used to make articles why devs should help each other and why it's so important. Problem is that you pushing your ideas to game you can't understand. This is not dead game like Evo, this game might have future if it tries to evolve and move forwards, but ideas from outsiders like you isn't helping at all.
=> So we agree on the fact that outside help is good, nice. But you're saying Forb pushed his ideas. I don't think suggesting changes, and backing up your suggestions with actual coding, so that all that is left for the devs to do is actually test and decide wether or not the change is wanted, is what you'd call "pushing ideas". Suggestions are suggestions, if it results in an actual change that is kept throughout the versions then it's devs' responsibility. If you want to hold someone responsible for the projectile changes, hold the one who accepted those changes responsible, not the one who suggested them. If you go and jump from a cliff after i told you to, i think you're a grown up, it's your own responsibility for listening blindly, not mine.
Duck wrote:
01 Dec 2018, 11:28
So basically, you have no idea wtf you're talking about. I already knew that, but it's entertaining to hear it from the horses mouth.
Like i said, I could i just don't have time to invest understanding lua better and check all the changes you did. Maybe one day when I'll get a lot of free time I'll fork BA and I'll stop complaining about devs like you hurting BA and forcing bad changes. Just random insult again.
But I checked some commits and i found this "Unify buildpower of all builders into a standard". Outsider implementing change that effects balance and BA mechanics. I'll take a better look at all changes later and I can bet that I'll find even more bad stuff you did to BA.
=> That's an exemple of a mere suggestion. While we don't like it in terms of gameplay (I don't like it, you don't like it, we don't like it), that suggestion has a relatively decent thought process backing it up.
1: The fact that buildTime has very little meaning when it's 1345654 bt for x unit => what does it mean ? What will actually be the time needed to build that ? You get no information out of such numbers. While they are balanced, they are worthless in term of comprehension.
2: Unifying buildSpeeds is also a step towards more lisibility. Yes, we don't want all cons to have the same bp, it sounds terrible since it's part of what balances BA, but denying that having standardized buildspeeds wouldn't improve lisibility and understanding of the game is fallacy.
Changes like these, if they had been tweaked afterwards, could have resulted in something interesting if you simply divide all buildSpeeds and buildTimes by say 250, you get buildSpeeds and buildTimes values standardized on commander's BP. The buildTime displayed becomes the "time in second a commander needs to build x", the buildSpeed becomes the relative speed of unit Y vs commander's bp. It gets a meaning, helps lisibility, and doesn't change balance. Lack of work towards this and early test version release ruined it, now we're stucked with insanely high values that barely have any meaning and a community that doesn't give mere suggestions the attention and thoughts they deserve.
It has gone to the point where simply having an idea and sharing it suddenly takes epic proportions as if questionned the safety o the whole game. Sorry to bring it to you, but if you think the suggestion of having small wrecks non blocking is enough to kill BA, then your mental image of BA is that of a very weak game that barely stands by the works of magic.
BA is not a game that can be killed just that easily. It has over ten years of existence and finetuning, it's not so weak that a single suggestion will kill it.

Duck wrote:
01 Dec 2018, 11:28
While i'm trying to have a conversation about BA changes you implemented you just trying to roast me and insult me. One more guy who can't accept negative opinions and just going in fights, disgrace as a developer.
=> Dude, be honest with yourself for a second, you really think your way of "having a conversation" was pure, untainted, and wasn't offensive in the slightest? Giving your opinion, opening a discussion is fine, but you're doing it in an quite rude manner. You can't really be expecting people to just be nice, sit, and watch themselves be publicly trashed.
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Re: BA dev team's attitude towards ... -- split -- (FAs changes)

Post by Forboding Angel » 01 Dec 2018, 16:46

Duck wrote:
01 Dec 2018, 11:28
While i'm trying to have a conversation about BA changes you implemented you just trying to roast me and insult me. One more guy who can't accept negative opinions and just going in fights, disgrace as a developer.
This just demonstrates that you don't actually care about facts nor nuance, which makes you a complete waste of time. Your first sentence also demonstrates that you didn't even read any of it. I specifically addressed the target of my post, in my post.
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