MO_PreventCombomb possible rework - Page 2

MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

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MasterBel2
Posts: 347
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 12:03

Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by MasterBel2 »

NIX wrote:Why change something that's not broken? Only noobs get com bombed tbh because they are too slow to move their com.
Because there is good bad and better. If any of these options were how it used to be, would you be arguing for the current state or would you be arguing for the alternative?
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[Fx]Doo
Posts: 66
Joined: 30 Aug 2013, 16:39

Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by [Fx]Doo »

@klap
One of the option is only some kind of draw game prevention widget: It will not affect any other kinds of combombs happening during the game.

@vbs
This post is actually about improving the current state, by providing a constant rule rather than a modoption that can be turned off/on.
If i'm asking which option do you guys prefer, it's exactly because i want the least unintuitive rules possible so that the behaviour stays previsible.

@nix
This isn't even relevant dude. Non broken stuff can still be improved. And the goal isn't to provide combomb protection for "noobs". I myself am a fan of combombing players when I get the chance and combomb is as vital as light aa or LLTs in some situations such as comdrops or very aggressive compushes.
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[Fx]Doo
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Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by [Fx]Doo »

I have received a few "complaints" over the implementation of that change in v10.03. I'll therefore explain the decision that was taken:
Gameplay mechanics should be consistent and should not change in the course of the game (my opinion)
Gameplay mechanics were, up until now, inconsistent because of the existence of different rules depending on the host settings. Having a single, immuable rule was necessary to harmonize all games. The decision of implementing any kind of change to preventcombomb was taken with that in mind. The rules don't "change in the course of the game". Disallowing the two last commanders of a team to both die from each other isn't a change in the rules that happen in the course of the game, but a failsafe way to discernate winning/losing sides.

Your opinion was shared and was actually what motivated us to come up with this change, and I don't believe the change that happened is in discordance with it.
I think there is nothing wrong with a game ending because of a combomb.
All restrictions came into existence to make the game easier for people who complained.
Dguns should dgun, explosion should chain, transports should transport, air explosions should behave like any other.
There is nothing wrong with it, and it is now allowed in even more situations. The only restriction remaining concerning combombs/dguns are actually the ones that involve:
- Trolls in FFA, who play for the sake of combombing a "trolled" player and taking him out of the game for no reason.
- Avoiding draws in 1vs1 games
- Avoiding draws in team games
All other situations are, as Ares suggested, vanilla. This includes combombing in FFA, with a previously rezzed commander or combombing in team games.

Your opinions have been taken into account, and the result is closer to what you expected than you think. Giving it a try will actually prove it to you.
I am personally not interested changes to it
Are you not interested in changes because you don't care? Or do you mean you don't want it to change?
I am confused, and don't know how to react. Are you willingly trolling us?
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klapmongool
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007, 13:19

Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by klapmongool »

But what is wrong with a draw in a teamgame?
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[Fx]Doo
Posts: 66
Joined: 30 Aug 2013, 16:39

Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by [Fx]Doo »

We had started a discussion about it on lobby but never ended it.

Since commander destruction is equal to the team losing the game, the only thing i can imagine is considering a "draw" as "both teams lost". The fact is that a draw in a death match means both team failed to survive.

That would mean, a Draw match would cause TS loss for both sides. This seems more acceptable to me.

In 1vs1, that would also mean that going for a draw match will not allow you to dodge a loss (and aim for one if you realise you're no match for your opponent). This also seems more reasonable.

Unlike sports, or chess, BA is a DEATHMATCH. The only outcomes are death or survival through killing opponents. There is no outcome where both teams live because there is no time limit, or move limit.

If that is an acceptable solution to you (all), i wouldn't mind actually putting it to the test.
An issue will still remain though: what of the combombs in FFA? What should happen when i deliberately combomb a player with my last commander in an FFA game, with only ruining his game in mind?
If there is yet another need to have rules specific to ffa games, then we are back to unconsistant rules, altering game experience for unaware/new players that don't always check ModOptions when playing.
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Ares
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011, 13:43

Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by Ares »

Draw should behave as a draw not a loss.
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klapmongool
Posts: 843
Joined: 13 Aug 2007, 13:19

Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by klapmongool »

Wat a draw counts as is not a discussion for game design. That is something for TS balancing. I don't think discussions about the nature of BA (DEATHMATCH! ROAR!) is helpful. IF you do want to ground the choice into 'logic' you could also say that a win or a loss is relative to how the other team performed. There is no win or loss independently of the performance of the other team. You can only win if the other team loses. You can only lose if the other team wins. If neither wins or loses it is a draw.

Concerning TS implementation: as far as I know we used to have draws in the past. How were these draws counted in TS balancing?
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Silentwings
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Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by Silentwings »

The TrueSkill algorithm has no problem handling draws (which in Spring are communicated by declaring multiple winning AllyTeamIDs), and nor does Spring (https://springrts.com/wiki/Lua_SyncedCtrl#Game_End). Functionality already exists to do it in the natural way.

However, there is currently no way to declare that "everyone lost", since an empty winners table is interpreted in Spring as an abandoned game. For that you would need a feature request to the engine, lobby and SPADS. I think TrueSkill also lacks functionality for it, but didn't check.

+1 to not using emotional/storyline based arguments to decide who wins/draws/loses.
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Ares
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Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by Ares »

Two commanders dying at the same time has been a draw since 1997, why change this now wtf?
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Jools
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Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by Jools »

very_bad_soldier wrote:I think combomb behavior that changes depened if its last com or not last com should be avoided. Gameplay mechanics should be consistent and should not change in the course of the game (my opinion):
- it feels arbitrary and unnatural. Cannot be justified by any physical laws or logic (like laser falloff or something)
- unneccessary complex due to "dynamic" rules ingame
- intransparent to the player (I also think a team should not have godlike knowledge about enemy com count)
Why not use the rules I posted above that are in use in XTA? Theu have been standard commander tourney rules since the TA-times and the community is used to them. Noobs will ofc always be noobs.
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[Fx]Doo
Posts: 66
Joined: 30 Aug 2013, 16:39

Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by [Fx]Doo »

@jools
That's actually what happens in a last commander vs last commander situation.
These rules used to be activated with a mod option, and active in any commander vs commander situation, and the latest updates shifted it to the described situation: Last commander vs Last commander; while being always active.
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sprunk
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Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by sprunk »

there is currently no way to declare that "everyone lost"
Return Gaia? Fails for PvE mods but BA isn't one.
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Silentwings
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Re: MO_PreventCombomb possible rework

Post by Silentwings »

Have you tried it? (I haven't, and had forgot that gaia always exists now - but I have no clue how SPADS/SLDB would react.)

BA does have PvE in chicken mode, with draws even (traditionally) possible if >1 human allyteam, but since players prefer to ally vs chickens, I never saw it used :mrgreen:
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