Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

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tzaeru
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Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by tzaeru »

So visiting BA to see how it's hanging, I was right away met by a player who had taken it to themselves to call everyone "cunts" and "niggers". The amount of general trashtalk from many other players was also rather offsetting.

The really ugly thing about this was that most of the people around seemed to be quite OK with it.

How come the community has started to allow this kind of behaviour? Doesn't this just keep driving more and more of the remaining players away?

Really, this is very sad to see as I'd expected better from BA's community.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by Forboding Angel »

Well, you nailed it. Moving forward Floris is taking some steps to clean it up.

Most of us will have nothing to do with the BA community specifically for the reasons you state.
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Floris
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Joined: 04 Jan 2011, 20:00

Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by Floris »

Moving forward Floris is taking some steps to clean it up.
huh? I am?
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Kloot
Spring Developer
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by Kloot »

I'm fairly certain there is a variant of Godwin's law which states that the longer an online player community stagnates, the probability it becomes indistinguishable from a cesspool approaches 1.
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tzaeru
Posts: 283
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by tzaeru »

Forboding Angel wrote:Most of us will have nothing to do with the BA community specifically for the reasons you state.
Yeah, honestly, seeing this killed any and all interest I might have had for playing some games in the coming weeks.
Floris wrote:
Moving forward Floris is taking some steps to clean it up.
huh? I am?
If you aren't, someone(s) with some credibility probably should.
Kloot wrote:I'm fairly certain there is a variant of Godwin's law which states that the longer an online player community stagnates, the probability it becomes indistinguishable from a cesspool approaches 1.
That's a nice variation, works for stagnating water just the same.
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MasterBel2
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by MasterBel2 »

There are many of us out there who are sick of it, problem is that people have worked out ways to get around bans, making moderating the community near-impossible. Either that or people just don't take the effort to perma-ban. Plus, the community has shrunk to the point where it's just too small to be moderated correctly without ending up with no community left over.

Recently things took a turn for the worse when one OverKilHost came along. I'm not saying that it's inherently a bad host or anything, but it normalised such a way of trashtalking by way of its greeting/response messages. Steps have been taken to discourage this by some of the players (Me included), but honestly I still think it goes too far. The [ACE]Hosts are much more polite, and I've been suprised how much that changes the way people talk when in the host. If there could be something done to fix the situation, I'm sure many of the players would appreciate it.
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Kapytii
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by Kapytii »

Plz ban Mando, he is a major C and a N lover.

Who cares about cunts and niggers in the internets, you see one and you move on. BUT Mando says it too much. And Adolf. But Adolf is The Satan, so I think its ok.
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MasterBel2
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by MasterBel2 »

Kapytii, yes Mando is a big culprit, but he and Adolf aren't the only two. There are quite a few who speak in such a way.

Honestly though, re OverKillHost, should the host maintainer (murtagon I think) be adressed about the messages he's using for his hosts? Even though we managed to get him to tame down the messages a little on one of the hosts (OverKillHost1), the messages continue to be at least suggestive of derogatory language. Never mind that the messages on the other hosts were never changed (OverKill_1v1, OverKill_2v2, OverLoadHost_FFA I think are the other three).
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dansan
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by dansan »

There is not a lack of technical control mechanisms, but of responsibility and enforcement.

A few weeks ago I played in a TechA host and was insulted by a player. Not strong by BA-standards, but I'm not a child anymore and will not simply accept insults because it's "normal". The local admin was sympathetic to me and my view and kicked the offending player 15 times, until he said >>I'll behave<<, and then we had some nice matches. Ofc this cost us some time and nerve, but in the end it worked. As it is a social problem technical solutions will only go half the way.

If an autohost uses offending speech in its greeting messages, it is the lobby moderators job to kick those hosts. If the offense is repeated - perma-ban bot-account and don't give bot-accounts to the responsible admin anymore.

It's the same as for the forums: there must be rules (there are), and they must be enforced.
IMHO in the "Lobby Clients & Server" subforum there should be a sticky posting with rules for autohosts and autohost-admins. they could start like this:
  • (Responsibility) To become a Bot-admin (spads level > 100 or so?), you must have registered the lobby-account with an email-address. ( I think this can currently not be checked or enforced.)
  • (Responsibility) Bot flags should only be given to users which have registered the same email-address to their lobby-account and their forum-account.
  • (Enforcement) Privileges (bot-flag, admin-status) can be removed if rules are not complied with and warnings are ignored.
  • (Enforcement) Autohosts w/o valid admins are auto-kicked.
  • (Conduct) The same rules as for the forum apply, with regards to respect in speech etc.
  • (Conduct) Autohost-owners are required to create and maintain a forum-post detailing rules specific to their game/autohost/admin-style/speech-rules (diverging/extending from the generell conduct-rules).
Handling some email-address-verification and a forum post is way less work that setting up a linux/win root-server and installing and maintaining spads. So why not require the above (or similar)?

This sounds like a lot for the spring gaming community, but think about it: similar rules and operations are what you find everywhere in RL and in other - working - [online] communities!
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ThinkSome
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by ThinkSome »

> The local admin was sympathetic to me and my view and kicked the offending player 15 times, until he said >>I'll behave<<

Kicked 15 times?! There is a technical solution to this known as a "ban".

> and then we had some nice matches. Ofc this cost us some time and nerve, but in the end it worked. As it is a social problem technical solutions will only go half the way.

Technical solutions will work once they are properly implemented and enforced. Speaking of this, a lot of the blame lies on people that support such behaviour by joining these hosts (in this case, you).

> If an autohost uses offending speech in its greeting messages, it is the lobby moderators job to kick those hosts. If the offense is repeated - perma-ban bot-account and don't give bot-accounts to the responsible admin anymore.

Yes, the lobby in general should have rules (as an autohost owner, where are they?) and they should be enforced.
For the rest:
  • (Responsibility) How does registering an email address prove responsibility?
  • (Enforcement) Can be removed? They are removed. Or rather, trust is earned and not a birth (sign-up) right.
  • (Conduct) Autohosts should have some freedom with regards to speech and some other rules, but deviation from lobby "soft" rules should be marked in the join message (Perhaps people will actually start reading them). Instead of a forum post, I recommend rules printing by request in PM to players and on first join.
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dansan
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by dansan »

ThinkSome wrote:> The local admin was sympathetic to me and my view and kicked the offending player 15 times, until he said >>I'll behave<<
Kicked 15 times?! There is a technical solution to this known as a "ban".
Bans don't work, as players just switch/create-new accounts. It is better to communicate with them. If they have the possibility to come around, they'll be able to play - that's an incentive! - and that is what everyone usually wants. Having a competition who can faster create accounts and (b)kick is also a sort of game, but it leads to less fun time.
ThinkSome wrote:> and then we had some nice matches. Ofc this cost us some time and nerve, but in the end it worked. As it is a social problem technical solutions will only go half the way.
Technical solutions will work once they are properly implemented and enforced.
As I wrote above: there will always be someone for whom the game is to find ways around technical limitations. Technics and rules are tools, they are useless without the one who wields them - in this case a community of players and admins.
ThinkSome wrote:Speaking of this, a lot of the blame lies on people that support such behaviour by joining these hosts (in this case, you).
I generally agree. In the case I mentioned it was a notorious player coming to a nice host with nice people.
ThinkSome wrote:(Responsibility) How does registering an email address prove responsibility?
The registration creates a sense of 'accountability'. That is a usual requisite for responsibility (it's not technically necessary, but it works in its favor). If we want admins to be responsible members of the community, we can expect of them to be a) reachable (via email + pm) and b) read the forums. Here they can earn trust and respect of peers. That encourages positive behavior.
ThinkSome wrote:(Enforcement) Can be removed? They are removed. Or rather, trust is earned and not a birth (sign-up) right.
There are different approaches to trust relations. In an open, dynamic community like spring, we might want to encourage people to involve them self. For that low barriers are positive. One should not be blind, but one can trust 1st and remove trust/authorization later in non-hazardous situations. This is the theme how most open source projects work.
ThinkSome wrote:Instead of a forum post, I recommend rules printing by request in PM to players and on first join.
+1, very good idea.
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ThinkSome
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by ThinkSome »

dansan wrote: The registration creates a sense of 'accountability'. That is a usual requisite for responsibility (it's not technically necessary, but it works in its favor). If we want admins to be responsible members of the community, we can expect of them to be a) reachable (via email + pm) and b) read the forums. Here they can earn trust and respect of peers. That encourages positive behavior.
Instead of emails, I have proposed a different solution in viewtopic.php?f=16&t=35954&p=581049#p581049
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Ares
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by Ares »

Murtagon should be allowed to do whatever he likes with his server.

Praise Murtagon
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dansan
Server Owner & Developer
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by dansan »

Ares wrote:Murtagon should be allowed to do whatever he likes with his server.

Praise Murtagon
Ofc he can do with his server what he wants. He just cannot use springs infrastructure how he wants. This is where regulation comes into play.
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dansan
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by dansan »

ThinkSome wrote:
dansan wrote: The registration creates a sense of 'accountability'. That is a usual requisite for responsibility (it's not technically necessary, but it works in its favor). If we want admins to be responsible members of the community, we can expect of them to be a) reachable (via email + pm) and b) read the forums. Here they can earn trust and respect of peers. That encourages positive behavior.
Instead of emails, I have proposed a different solution in viewtopic.php?f=16&t=35954&p=581049#p581049
Your proposal (achievement/reward based permissions) aims at players.
The rules I suggest (at this point they are just examples) are for admins (both lobby-admins and autohost-admins). IMHO they are the problem and solution, as they can and must enforce rules. Without their cooperation the community is doomed.
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MasterBel2
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by MasterBel2 »

So… You're saying that, moving forward, we should

a) Be stricter about what autohosts are allowed on the server (with the suggested guidelines - I guess they would be discussed)
b) Have stricter moderation of autohosts (this will fall to the autohost admins, correct?)

Should we also be considering another, "player aimed" approach? Forboding Angel seems to have an issue with the ideas proposed here, does anyone have any better ideas or is it barking up the wrong tree in terms of solving the problem?
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ThinkSome
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by ThinkSome »

dansan wrote: Your proposal (achievement/reward based permissions) aims at players.
The rules I suggest (at this point they are just examples) are for admins (both lobby-admins and autohost-admins). IMHO they are the problem and solution, as they can and must enforce rules. Without their cooperation the community is doomed.
Yes sorry, I wanted to quote you so you'd get a notification, but should have used an empty quote instead. Autohost admins can only enforce as long as they have the technical means to do so, which is the player-side discussion that I linked.
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dansan
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by dansan »

MasterBel2 wrote:So… You're saying that, moving forward, we should

a) Be stricter about what autohosts are allowed on the server (with the suggested guidelines - I guess they would be discussed)
yes → moderation by lobby-admins
MasterBel2 wrote:b) Have stricter moderation of autohosts (this will fall to the autohost admins, correct?)
yes
MasterBel2 wrote:Should we also be considering another, "player aimed" approach?
→ b) Have stricter moderation of autohosts
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RageQuitV
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Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by RageQuitV »

tzaeru wrote: Really, this is very sad to see as I'd expected better from BA's community.
And they say I'm the one trolling.
tzaeru wrote: "cunts" and "niggers".
Oh good heavens. Is there really reason to bring this vile talk into the forums too? At least use "the n-word".

Anyway:
The issue can't really be solved with any clever new vetting methods imo. The Spring community has melted down to its hard core. No matter what tool you use to dissect that core, the base material remains the same. It is what it is. #fatalism
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tzaeru
Posts: 283
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: Visited to spec a few games from a long time, revolted by the community

Post by tzaeru »

RageQuitV wrote: Anyway:
The issue can't really be solved with any clever new vetting methods imo. The Spring community has melted down to its hard core. No matter what tool you use to dissect that core, the base material remains the same. It is what it is. #fatalism
It is what these people make it be.

The basic premise behind my line of thought here is that BA is not beyond having another resurgence in activity, but as it stands, the community feels hostile both to the newcomer and the returning oldtimer. For any small spike of interest to the game to translate into more than a few weekends of playercount increase, the retention rate must be much higher. A part of that - in my opinion, a very large part - is a better community experience.

BA's not unrevokably doomed, but fatalistic attitudes certainly are not helping it.
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