may be dellete DSD

may be dellete DSD

Classic game design, maintained to please you...

Moderator: Content Developer

Post Reply
Broker
Posts: 156
Joined: 02 Jul 2012, 13:16

may be dellete DSD

Post by Broker »

Hi all

It can be enough to play on the same card. it's time to make a server without DSD.
0 x

User avatar
Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
Posts: 14636
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by Forboding Angel »

If that is done then no one plays on that server.
0 x

User avatar
MasterBel2
Posts: 347
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 12:03

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by MasterBel2 »

Lol Broker we're not going to win the DSD war any time soon. What would help would be a decent map edittor. And variety seems to be wanted - recently we played a couple 8v8 team games on throne (it works surprisingly well.) I think the issue is that we have very few really decent maps, and browsing maps in the lobby is a nightmare anyway. I think that refined maplists in lobbies could help though - !nextmap could be called with assurance a decent map will come up. It works quite well in [ACE]Pirateur however no one seems to want to play ther coz it's 5v5 max.

But I could further say that might not be DSD itself that's the issue, it's the number of players in each game. Too crowded. For 8v8 we need bigger maps than a 5v5 map like DSD.

It might be more productive to get a general consensus of the good maps out there, and refine autohost maplists, so that there is an easily available decent variety. Because often it seems that people want other maps than dsd just not that one that's being voted on right now.
0 x

Broker
Posts: 156
Joined: 02 Jul 2012, 13:16

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by Broker »

List good map. Just rotate it.

5X5

Altored Divide
Blindside_v2
ConterrockV12
Dead Reef Dry
Down_of_Destruction
Escarpment-v2
Paradise Lost V2
Tactical_Divide_v2
Tangerine
Tumult

7X7

ColoradoV1
Parched_mesa-v04
RustyDelta_final
Tabula-v4
TalenFortB1
Talus
Titan-v2
WesternFrontierV2
WidePass Fineto

8X8

DeltaSige
DeltaSigeDry Delexe V3
DeltaSige_v2b
DireStrights
Emain Macha
FolsomDamDeluxeV4
FolsomDamFinal
FrozenFortress_v2
Industrial Revolution v1
Its Wide
Kappa_Basin
Kappa_Basin_Flooded
Kolmogorov
LLTAComplexV2
Lost_v2
Moor_V4
Mountain Pass V4
Nuclear_Winter_v1
Sacrifice-V1
Supreme Battlefield
Techno Lands v2
Tempest
Tempest Siege v1
TheRockFinal
Tundra
Valiant_Saltscape
Valles_Marineris_v2


More then 8

DeltaSigeDryRev_x3
DeltaSigeDuoX
DeltaSigeRevX
Desert_Delta_Siege-v01
Koom Valley V2
0 x

User avatar
Silentwings
Moderator
Posts: 3646
Joined: 25 Oct 2008, 00:23

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by Silentwings »

All large game servers have automatic map rotation. When specific maps are played its because they are voted for. This has its problems but removing the choice is unlikely to be popular.
0 x

Broker
Posts: 156
Joined: 02 Jul 2012, 13:16

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by Broker »

Silentwings wrote:All large game servers have automatic map rotation. When specific maps are played its because they are voted for. This has its problems but removing the choice is unlikely to be popular.
wont to play on the same map.
0 x

aeonios
Posts: 202
Joined: 03 Feb 2015, 14:27

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by aeonios »

I don't think the reason why everyone plays 8v8 on DSD all day is necessarily because people like DSD or because they think it's the best map ever or anything like that. At least from what I've heard, the main issue comes down to the fact that BA does not have any resource sharing system.

What that means in practice is that if you take a metal spot from someone else then you get the metal from it and they don't, which leads to a situation where everyone has to know which mexes are "theirs" and which mexes are "someone else's". That means you have to memorize which mexes are which for every position on the map, for every player configuration lest you end up offending someone or causing a situation where your team loses due to having a weak point.

This also prevents certain maps (such as Talus) from being playable, because on maps like that some lanes have less resources than others, so it becomes a battle of strong side vs weak side for both teams which is incredibly unfun especially if you happen to be on your team's weak side.

Obviously if all you play is 8v8 on DSD there is much less to have to remember and it's much easier for noobs to pick up, so everyone just does that. Even if DSD is a butt ugly ancient porcmap and everyone is sick of seeing it, everyone has ultimately decided that the alternative is worse.

Zero-K does not have any of those issues courtesy of its resource sharing system. In ZK, big games (8v8, 10v10 and even bigger) are very popular but there are a very large number of maps that they're played on and not just one or a few. Not only are there no "my mex your mex" issues, but games are much less sensitive to having extra players relative to the map size. Even 10v10 on titan duel is not uncommon in ZK (although not necessarily our proudest activity). DSD gets played too, but only rarely because it's not considered a particularly good/fun map.

For BA/BAR, resource sharing suggests an additional possibility, which is the ability to upgrade other people's mexes. That would mean if one person on a team got a T2 fac they could boost their entire team's economy without the risk of taking resources away from other people on the team.

Since energy in ZK works differently than it does in BA ZK's resource sharing gadget would need to be modified to work for BA, but I don't think it'd be unreasonable to implement it in BAR assuming that there's enough interest in having a wider variety of maps become playable.
0 x

User avatar
Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
Posts: 14636
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by Forboding Angel »

Hmm I'll implement a communism modoption. Good idea!
0 x

aeonios
Posts: 202
Joined: 03 Feb 2015, 14:27

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by aeonios »

Something to consider for that, in ZK communism uses a payback system for eco stuff. Basically if you build a mex, your metal income is privatized until the mex has been paid for (and you still get communist income on top of that which does not subtract from your credit). For BA I think it'd make sense to do the same thing with energy for energy structures, ie you get credit for the amount of energy it cost to build them and the payback is in energy.
0 x

gonpost
Posts: 77
Joined: 22 Oct 2008, 00:43

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by gonpost »

What? People vote in DSD for one reason: TS. TS is a cancer. I have like 36 of it but all people do is worry about it. They want to play the same map because it now all they know how to play and gives them the best chance of winning to save their TS. You change the map and everyone goes fucking postal because suddenly they might lose. In the rare instances that other maps are voted in, it is amazing how poorly people play. They just use the same DSD teching tactics, meanwhile pros steamroll over them with good old fashioned expansion and units. So anyway, people only play DSD because they don't want to lose their precious TS. Meanwhile people like me just start to troll because we are bored. At least if I get rid of TS I can just fuck around and no one will yell at me for not going in 100% every game. It's maddening.
0 x

User avatar
Silentwings
Moderator
Posts: 3646
Joined: 25 Oct 2008, 00:23

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by Silentwings »

People voted for it long before TS existed.
0 x

aeonios
Posts: 202
Joined: 03 Feb 2015, 14:27

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by aeonios »

As a total nub at BA I can't really comment on that, but it's difficult to imagine things being like that in ZK. In team games it's always "take every mex that you can, typically aiming to get more than half the map". Once you've built up enough territory/eco then you worry about teching, which is just common sense.

On the other hand that's also kind of a flip side of the "my mex your mex" issue. If you have to expand, then who should expand where? In ZK it doesn't matter much where your start positions are and you just take whatever mexes are in front of you. If someone beats you to it then you keep going forward since it doesn't make any difference one way or the other. Eco does seem to be a lot slower in BA which may discourage people from expanding, but then again I'm pretty much a nab I have no idea how to get good mileage out of eco in BA in general.
0 x

User avatar
MasterBel2
Posts: 347
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 12:03

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by MasterBel2 »

I see what gonpost is saying - and I see that too. However - would you really rather the balance to go back to hours ingame? Or random? I've also never seen players complaining about other maps based on TS. It's either that the map is too small, too large, or imbalanced.

In BA it's very much every mex the team can, though there's also the issue of staying out of other people's lanes. Idk why people rage when I build and share mexes? But that's how bad it can be, yeah.

In BA, eco is everything. If you have five minutes of relative quiet without the enemy kept at bay, you can throw up an advanced fusion and the game is won. Part of this is the relative lack of metal on popular maps. Afaik the best players in the game are the best dsd afus techers. Not completely - as Teddy is high up there, but prettey much everyone else in the top bracket.

So has any progress been made on the communism option? How long before it begins to be operational?
0 x

User avatar
MasterBel2
Posts: 347
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 12:03

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by MasterBel2 »

The next question that I think needs to be seriously asked: How many maps out there can seriously support 8v8?
Broker wrote: DeltaSige
DeltaSigeDry Delexe V3
DeltaSige_v2b
DireStrights
Emain Macha
FolsomDamDeluxeV4
FolsomDamFinal
FrozenFortress_v2
Industrial Revolution v1
Its Wide
Kappa_Basin
Kappa_Basin_Flooded
Kolmogorov
LLTAComplexV2
Lost_v2
Moor_V4
Mountain Pass V4
Nuclear_Winter_v1
Sacrifice-V1
Supreme Battlefield
Techno Lands v2
Tempest
Tempest Siege v1
TheRockFinal
Tundra
Valiant_Saltscape
Valles_Marineris_v2


More then 8

DeltaSigeDryRev_x3
DeltaSigeDuoX
DeltaSigeRevX
Desert_Delta_Siege-v01
Koom Valley V2
Ok this is quite a list, but the only maps in this list that ever get votes for are DSD. (occasionally Desert seige, Mountain Pass or Folsom might win by 1 or 2 votes, even rarer some others).

So why is this? Not TS, it was happening well before that. Most alternatives are actually nicer to play on than DSD, most people seem to end up enjoying the games more. When I vote for DSD it's because nothing else will be accepted (I do have a pet hate for maps where water wins or loses the game).

Also, partially because DSD is played so often, it can be hard to think of another map to call a vote for. Possible solutions I can think of:
  • Autohosts periodically call votes for new maps, map pool based on number of players in a host, and will avoid calling votes for maps that frequently don't pass the vote
  • A different map selection system, like, for example, a selection of 3 maps presented, and you have to vote for one of them
  • In the backdrop of the lobby, it cycles through the minimap of random maps. You double-click on one of them to call a vote for the map. Good aesthetic possibilities :-)
Automatic map rotation does not work because there's a portion of the community that likes rematches, and so it seems that between that and DSD, automatic map rotation is almost always off.
0 x

aeonios
Posts: 202
Joined: 03 Feb 2015, 14:27

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by aeonios »

The list of good 8v8 maps is way bigger than that.

Just to add a few:

Enclaves
Stronghold
Downs of Destruction
Tabula
Absolution
Koch Canyon
Mescaline
Green Comet
MoonQ20x
Akilon Wastelands
Comet Catcher Redux

although sans-communism YMMV
0 x

gonpost
Posts: 77
Joined: 22 Oct 2008, 00:43

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by gonpost »

I support MasterBel2's ideas. I think that would go a long way... something like the map selection in Insurgency. As it is, people just can't think of even one tenth of all the good maps that exist.
0 x

User avatar
FabriceFABS
Posts: 351
Joined: 28 Jul 2010, 16:20

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by FabriceFABS »

Guys,
It has suggested to me in the past to build such host.
It is active actually :
* Balanced Annihilation * ~{5v5}~{GoodMaps} (^_^) on [ACE]Pirateur host.
Maps are :
[ACE]Pirateur wrote: [ACE]Pirateur ********** Available maps for current map list **********
17. Altored Divide Remake V3
72. CenterrockV12
75. Charlie in the Hills v2.1
90. Colorado_v1
91. Comet Catcher Redux
109. Crossing_4_final
117. Dead Reef Dry
122. DeltaSiegeDry
133. DesertSiege_v2b
163. Emain Macha
188. FolsomDamDeluxeV4
190. FolsomDamFlooded
192. Forgotten_Crossing_v1
194. FrozenFortress_v2
231. Hotlips_Redux_V2
253. Kappa_Basin
259. Koom Valley V2
260. LLTAComplexV2
305. MoonQ20x
310. Mountain Pass V4
313. Nation_v1
314. Nuclear_Winter_v1
323. Parched_mesa-v04
368. Small Supreme Battlefield V2
393. StormSiege_v3
405. TMA-0
406. Tabula-v4
407. Tabula_Flooded_v04
409. Talus
411. Tangerine
413. Tau10Dry
415. Tempest
427. TheRockFinal
428. TheRockJungle_Fix2
434. Titan-v2
443. Tropical-v2
452. Valles_Marineris_v2
471. XantheTerra_v3
473. Xenolithic_v4
Classic maps, well loved/played maps (after DSD yes...)

But success is almost zero, it is not because DSD is present, but because the players have their habits.
I can well remove DSD if you like, but I'm not sure it would change something, but who knows...
Anyway, if you are interested, just let me know.

But notice that If player can't play their maps, they will leave and plays it where it is available.
I could be wrong too.

+
0 x

User avatar
MasterBel2
Posts: 347
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 12:03

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by MasterBel2 »

I would love to play in Pirateur but I've never been able to get people to come over, for the sole reason that 'the host doesn't allow 16 players'. But the once we did play in it I think it worked decently well. (and then everyone moved straight to Pirine so we could have an 8v8 on … you guessed it … DSD.)
0 x

Orfelius
Posts: 103
Joined: 17 Nov 2014, 20:57

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by Orfelius »

Mountain Pass V4
Techno Lands v2
I know that I don't play BA but these two positions are just hurting my eyes.

Mountain Pass has almost no metal on it and is way too small for even a 2v2 imo. The titular pass is so narrow that barely anything can go trough it.

Techno Lands is very narrow, has one ramp and completely uneven distribution of metal. It is just a load of bleh.


Btw I like how some people became more involved in the BA community.
0 x

User avatar
MasterBel2
Posts: 347
Joined: 11 Apr 2016, 12:03

Re: may be dellete DSD

Post by MasterBel2 »

Are you sure that that's mountain pass you're thinking of? http://replays.springrts.com/replay/66e ... ce1fc61a7/
0 x

Post Reply

Return to “Balanced Annihilation”