Whats happening with BA?

Whats happening with BA?

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Senna
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Joined: 17 Mar 2009, 00:20

Whats happening with BA?

Post by Senna »

Finally i joined after some years, and found something terrible.

1- Too few people, what happened with it?
2- Gamers keep playing DSD....
3- Is BA still maintained?
4- what is happening with the project BAR? dead?


I dont know whats happening, when i joined all old people saying that BA is dieing.

We dont see 2 host full anymore, even 1 host full is hard to find.

And seems that no one cares about....
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jamerlan
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Joined: 20 Oct 2009, 13:04

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by jamerlan »

>>Finally i joined after some years...
welcome back!

>>1- Too few people, what happened with it?
zero-k users moved to their own lobby

>>2- Gamers keep playing DSD....
I dont see anything bad with that. I love this map.

>>3- Is BA still maintained?
sure: http://imolarpg.dyndns.org/trac/balatest/timeline

>>4- what is happening with the project BAR? dead?
As far as I know - its almost finished

>>I dont know whats happening, when i joined all old people saying that BA is dieing.
Russian community, for example, is growing :-)

Overall:
next spring engine release will be very exciting and it will work faster for windows users :-)
abma (with other devs) working hard on improving springlobby

everything is OK!
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Silentwings
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by Silentwings »

(1) The only change of recent years is that ZK now runs their own lobbyserver. Prophets of impending doom existed since day one of Spring, 10+ years ago.
(2) A lot of people like it.
(3) Yes. See viewforum.php?f=44.
(4) See viewtopic.php?f=44&t=28016&start=40#p564179.
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klapmongool
Posts: 843
Joined: 13 Aug 2007, 13:19

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by klapmongool »

I have been checking the forum and/or lobby once every (few) month(s) to see if things got better or if BAR got released. I'll certainly jump on the BAR bandwagon upon release, if only to play some games with non-DSD players again. Besides that I don't have any hope for BA anymore.
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smoth
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by smoth »

What happened to the rest of the thread? I recall posting at least 1 image showing how that wasn't the case
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Silentwings
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by Silentwings »

I split the discussion of big games into here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=33201 and forgot to link in both directions, sorry.
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Nixa
Posts: 350
Joined: 05 Oct 2006, 04:32

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by Nixa »

jamerlan wrote:>>Finally i joined after some years...
welcome back!

>>1- Too few people, what happened with it?
zero-k users moved to their own lobby

>>2- Gamers keep playing DSD....
I dont see anything bad with that. I love this map.

>>3- Is BA still maintained?
sure: http://imolarpg.dyndns.org/trac/balatest/timeline

>>4- what is happening with the project BAR? dead?
As far as I know - its almost finished

>>I dont know whats happening, when i joined all old people saying that BA is dieing.
Russian community, for example, is growing :-)

Overall:
next spring engine release will be very exciting and it will work faster for windows users :-)
abma (with other devs) working hard on improving springlobby

everything is OK!
Let us all thank DSD for existing
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tzaeru
Posts: 283
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by tzaeru »

Even a 90% finished BAR release would have been better than no release at all. BA's still great and all, but I'd haphazard to venture a guess that the incentive to play it remains low for many due to the lack of a vibrant and diverse online scene. It needs more momentum. Last I checked, BAR was so close to done that many released games aren't that well rounded.

I've still checked every now and then on early EU times, but usually there's from 0 to 8 players tops. Or DSD. No incentive for me to play. Alas, is Beherith still around? The NonDerivate clause of BAR means that if he's not around, no one else can ever continue BAR either.
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smoth
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by smoth »

there was a commit on may 4. Volunteer to help and you could help it along. Why don't you offer your help instead of crying about how you cannot go check for updates FFS. Behe isn't the only one helping with bar.
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tzaeru
Posts: 283
Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by tzaeru »

smoth wrote:there was a commit on may 4.
Cool. ^,^
smoth wrote:Volunteer to help and you could help it along. Why don't you offer your help instead of crying about how you cannot go check for updates FFS.
Why the hostility? It's quite uncalled for and not exactly productive for such a tiny gaming community. Now, firstly, I have contributed code to BAR -- not much, but still -- and secondly, I don't personally feel very eager to contribute to a project under a CC-ND clause, as this means that I couldn't even fork the project, to which I freely contributed into, and derivate from its code! :P

Thirdly, I've a lot of things on my plate and quite frankly, do often find myself in lack of time.

So please, there's no reason to be overtly jumpy and snarky at your fellow folk here. And anyway, my "crying" was lamenting the lack of a release, not the lack of contribution.
smoth wrote:Behe isn't the only one helping with bar.
No, but I've been under the impression that he's the copyright holder, unless I'm mistaken. It's more or less up to him when -- if ever -- BAR gets released.

EDIT, to add: I realize in retrospect that I may myself have come off as overtly negative and pessimistic. This was not the intention, but a mishap in the choice of phrasing. Therefore, I apologize if this was the case.
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gajop
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by gajop »

tzaeru wrote:and secondly, I don't personally feel very eager to contribute to a project under a CC-ND clause, as this means that I couldn't even fork the project, to which I freely contributed into, and derivate from its code! :P
BAR's code cannot be released under CC-ND or any non-derivative license as that's not compatible with GPLv2 (and it needs to be in order to use this engine). So you don't have to worry about that.
What's probably released under CC-ND is the art.
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tzaeru
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by tzaeru »

gajop wrote:
tzaeru wrote:and secondly, I don't personally feel very eager to contribute to a project under a CC-ND clause, as this means that I couldn't even fork the project, to which I freely contributed into, and derivate from its code! :P
BAR's code cannot be released under CC-ND or any non-derivative license as that's not compatible with GPLv2 (and it needs to be in order to use this engine). So you don't have to worry about that.
What's probably released under CC-ND is the art.
That would make sense, yes. The license file does imply ND though, as majority of the code files lack a pretext. This raises the question of what licensing BAR code actually does use? And does using different codeset but same art consitute derivation from the stancepoint of the licensing on the art, as the latter does still allows redistribution through private means, just not derivation? The most problematic thing with BAR licensing is that if Behe just hypotethically got into a car crash, continuation of BAR would be legally a little difficult, unless I'm misunderstanding something here.

Actually, now that I think of it, the whole licensing stance of SpringRTS is kind of questionable to me, but perhaps that can of worms has already been opened and sorted through enough many times to merely conclude that some like it, some don't.
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gajop
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by gajop »

Code is defined in each file separately: http://imolarpg.dyndns.org/trac/balates ... ole.lua#L8
Most is going to be GPLv2, or compatible with it.
I'm not sure what's confusing with the SpringRTS license. It's GPLv2, and it requires that all Lua code is also GPLv2 compatible.
It puts no restraints over art licensing.
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tzaeru
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by tzaeru »

gajop wrote:Code is defined in each file separately: http://imolarpg.dyndns.org/trac/balates ... ole.lua#L8
Most is going to be GPLv2, or compatible with it.
Heh, when I was skimming through a few of the code files, I mostly happened on ones that lacked the license defination. Seems such code files are mostly under /luarules.
gajop wrote:I'm not sure what's confusing with the SpringRTS license. It's GPLv2, and it requires that all Lua code is also GPLv2 compatible.
It puts no restraints over art licensing.
Nothing's particularly confusing and I didn't mean to imply that. It's questionable to me, which is to imply that I feel not well about being enforced into GPL if I code something for a project taking use of Spring, but obviously that will never change and it's not really on-topic with Balanced Annihilation, so I could as well have skipped bringing it up. The actual confusion is mostly in BAR's licensing. Many code files lack a pretext or other definition of their licensing, leaving the LICENSE.txt file to apply. Assuming that this is merely an oversight and the code is meant to be GPLv2 with the art being CC-BY-ND, the risk of wasted time in participating in the project is much lowered. :-)

The point of this argumentation is really just to showcase why participation to BAR might not be *just* getting in to codin', and this is but one of the many personal reasons.
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smoth
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by smoth »

What irritated me is the history of "GIMME GIMME" within this community and the flagrant lack of respect and appreciation here-in. It infuriates me. You could have just checked the SVN to see if things are going on. Instead I see a poster saying give me your junk because you are not moving fast enough. Yet over the years each time that happens we end up with a half assed *A which is why we have so darn many *A projects... because everyone is an idea guy and no one is doing real work! BAR is real work, creating a NEW visual identity and trying to create a polished project. I am sure I will get pissy responses after this next sentence but my caring for this community is the lowest it ever has been... The reason BAR has said license is so a project that is a haphazzard hodgepodge like ZK doesn't take the art and merge it into their hideous project taking away any newness that bar had. I have had projects pull stuff from mine before it was ever released, it was quite demotivating at the time. You have NO idea how upsetting it is to do something different, be > 1 month away from release and someone puts your work into their project before you can even show it off so when your project does come out it is already been done.

You don't have to fork to make a deviation of BAR, that is why we have MUTATORS. However, no one uses them either out of ego or ignorance I dunno, not every thing has to be a FORK which is a split off and odds are will fall apart after a few years. I hate that we have all these projects all basic TA balance derivatives, they split the community and tore us apart over the years with players choosing favorites and acting like complete dickheads because they saw one group as competition for their group. It was fucking stupid shit and instead of realizing that we are all part of a community, they tried to divide us.

I have contributed to nearly EVERY project here, if I have not, odds are it is because whatever I was working on was dropped due to infighting(there was a time I was dedicated to working on the s44 ui). I don't have credit for most of the shit I did, hell much of it is forgotten and even attributed to others.. but hey, just because someone else happens to have an apparent lul in their productivity we should say fuck that guy and fork his work because clearly he isn't coming back at the first sign of slowdown(or we could just watch the SVN). You can STILL help, instead what I saw was an entitled post bemoaning their lack of speed on something that is a tremendous amount of effort and zero effort made to actually check and see if there is working being done. Instead of posting something like that, just post, hey, seems you guys are slowing down, is there anything I can help with.

My contempt for this community and all the problems I posted here in this post is a big reason why I just cannot muster the motivation to continue work on my own project here. Think about it... I was here for 10 years, working to try and see this community do better, devoting most of my spare time to contributing anything I could to anyone(including those I could not stand) and I just can't anymore. I am scarce because I am just so sick of the bullshit, the old hatreds and drama but I stay around because I have a VERY faint glimmer of hope for the community still in a sort of sunk-cost fallacy sort of way.

The ART is the non forkable because of the exact gimme gimme attitude and the art is the visual identity of the project.

So TL;DR version. You don't gotta fork, boo hoo license so I won't help is asshole behavior and what kills this place and you could have just looked in the SVN.
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smoth
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by smoth »

tzaeru wrote: Actually, now that I think of it, the whole licensing stance of SpringRTS is kind of questionable to me, but perhaps that can of worms has already been opened and sorted through enough many times to merely conclude that some like it, some don't.
ART cannot be GPL'd, that is/was specified years ago on the GPL site. Please don't start this fucking can of bullshit.. did you READ the licenses? Like beyond just skim? Many people, myself included spent time AND money evaluating the licenses. It isn't even out yet, be happy they don't have their shit in a private SVN.. actually even with a private SVN I had stuff taken out before release... so yeah... history bullshit, drama etc.

JUST START A NEW THREAD asking, what is the slowdown, what can I do to help. PLEASE
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tzaeru
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Joined: 28 Oct 2007, 02:23

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by tzaeru »

I'm not really sure how to answer to that. You lament disrespectful behaviour by the community with which you still seem to hang around, yet have little quarrels in partaking in such behaviour yourself.

I had no ill intentions. I haven't posted here in two years til' just now. If my tone to you has been conveying offense where none was meant, I apologize again as I did earlier. Bottom line is, that we don't know each other at all and are not aware of each others' histories in this community or each others' motivations. Yet you seem to take it as your right to make very far-fetched conclusions all while in the progress belittling my motivations and occasional efforts.

But if this is the attitude with which old players and people who wonder on the state of things and present honest questions, I really can not wonder why there are big problems in the air. :/
smoth wrote:
tzaeru wrote: Actually, now that I think of it, the whole licensing stance of SpringRTS is kind of questionable to me, but perhaps that can of worms has already been opened and sorted through enough many times to merely conclude that some like it, some don't.
ART cannot be GPL'd, that is/was specified years ago on the GPL site. Please don't start this fucking can of bullshit..
Really now? I never said anything about art at all in relation to GPL.
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Silentwings
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by Silentwings »

Enough - you are both good people who have both contributed to BAR and there is no need to fight over it. Can continue here viewtopic.php?f=44&t=33486.

Most Spring projects have rather confused licensing - my understanding is that all the art in BAR is currently CC-BY-ND (and the license is owned by behe). The code parts are myriad of different stuff with many authors.
the whole licensing stance of SpringRTS is kind of questionable to me
It is made clear here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17847&p=334243&hili ... se#p334243

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