new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

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Silentwings
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new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by Silentwings » 20 May 2013, 11:51

It seems I should explain "Set Target" a bit more:

To assign the command:
Select one of your own units.
Press 'y' (or click 'set target' on the menu).
Click on an enemy unit.

The result is that your own unit will *always* shoot at that enemy unit, if that enemy is within its range.

To remove the command:
Select your own unit.
Press 'j' or click 'cancel target' on menu.
or
Select your own unit and press 's' or click stop on menu.
Of course this also stops all other commands.
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Silentwings
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by Silentwings » 20 May 2013, 20:52

Also, when you hover mouse over unit and press shift, the 'set target' is where the orange line is aiming.
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Google_Frog
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by Google_Frog » 21 May 2013, 10:56

Ah, I see my set target system has made it into BA. Is it unchanged? In that case the 's' to remove target behaviour is implemented by a widget and the widget also issues 'set target' when an attack command is canceled by a move command.
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Silentwings
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by Silentwings » 21 May 2013, 11:32

We changed it a bit, but of course I'm very grateful to you for writing in the first place :p Here's details of diffs to the ZK version, as best I remember them

Added that the 'stop' command removes the target
Target is kept even when target moves out of range and/or LOS
Only added the circular set target command
A normal attack command won't set or change the target (no keep target widget)
Synced->Unsynced is done with SendToUnsynced
Made line stipple to target show on shift and match the engines stipple effect

I added comments to widget:info & top of the ba-svn version to make sure no one would confuse it with the ZK version.
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Kixu
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by Kixu » 21 May 2013, 21:25

This is amazing. Fun micro awaits.
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Google_Frog
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by Google_Frog » 22 May 2013, 11:32

Silentwings wrote:Target is kept even when target moves out of range
In ZK the target is removed when it moves out of LOS and radar, not out of range. This is to replicate how attack commands are removed on unseen units in the engine.
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Silentwings
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by Silentwings » 22 May 2013, 15:24

You are right - I meant that the target was kept when out of LOS (as well as out of range).
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luckywaldo7
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by luckywaldo7 » 22 May 2013, 21:05

It looks like you have it the way you want, but I'll go ahead and throw my feedback from when it was first implemented in ZK. (They disagreed with me)

I think it would make sense to have set-target activate automatically from a manual attack command, and then get rid of the separate 'set-target' command. There isn't really a situation in which you would want to use 'attack' and 'set-target' independently. When you give an attack order, you are looking to attack -that- unit. And along similar lines, you don't really need anything other than 'stop' to cancel it. So 'set-target' and 'remove-target' simply become integrated into regular old 'attack' and 'stop'.

You don't lose much in the control, but you cut down what would otherwise be a creeping-fattening of the interface. Instead of adding to the interface, you just make it act a bit smarter. Of course, BA doesn't have the interface fat that ZK does, so it isn't nearly as much of a problem.
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CarRepairer
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by CarRepairer » 23 May 2013, 15:27

I agree with luckywaldo. I have never used set target in zk, simply because I am not able to add the extra two commands to my brain. Nothing to do with physical size of the menu.
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albator
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by albator » 23 May 2013, 18:32

I would probably use it if somehow I was able to configure it, permanently of not (by a button, but whatever) from a class of unit to another class, like for the autogroup widget.

for example:
Janus to commander
Riot to flash
etc...

That would also allow the user to define a priority within the priority list:

Riot fire 1st on pewee then ak, then flash, etc...
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Google_Frog
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by Google_Frog » 24 May 2013, 03:09

luckywaldo7 wrote:It looks like you have it the way you want, but I'll go ahead and throw my feedback from when it was first implemented in ZK. (They disagreed with me)

I think it would make sense to have set-target activate automatically from a manual attack command, and then get rid of the separate 'set-target' command. There isn't really a situation in which you would want to use 'attack' and 'set-target' independently. When you give an attack order, you are looking to attack -that- unit. And along similar lines, you don't really need anything other than 'stop' to cancel it. So 'set-target' and 'remove-target' simply become integrated into regular old 'attack' and 'stop'.

You don't lose much in the control, but you cut down what would otherwise be a creeping-fattening of the interface. Instead of adding to the interface, you just make it act a bit smarter. Of course, BA doesn't have the interface fat that ZK does, so it isn't nearly as much of a problem.
Attack commands cause the unit to stop or to move a bit and there are many cases in which moving is bad. I use settarget to give Crabe a high-priority target which should be fired at if possible. I don't want the Crabe to give up it's armour bonus if the target happens to be momentarily obscured by something.

I would not remove the command but I would remove the button. I agree that independant settarget and canceltarget buttons on the UI are too much clutter. Originally they were accessible via the default-enabled widget which effectively duplicates your suggestion. But players could still read about it and set a hotkey. Someone disagreed though and we ended up with a command button.
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Johannes
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by Johannes » 24 May 2013, 10:51

luckywaldo7 wrote:It looks like you have it the way you want, but I'll go ahead and throw my feedback from when it was first implemented in ZK. (They disagreed with me)

I think it would make sense to have set-target activate automatically from a manual attack command, and then get rid of the separate 'set-target' command. There isn't really a situation in which you would want to use 'attack' and 'set-target' independently. When you give an attack order, you are looking to attack -that- unit. And along similar lines, you don't really need anything other than 'stop' to cancel it. So 'set-target' and 'remove-target' simply become integrated into regular old 'attack' and 'stop'.

You don't lose much in the control, but you cut down what would otherwise be a creeping-fattening of the interface. Instead of adding to the interface, you just make it act a bit smarter. Of course, BA doesn't have the interface fat that ZK does, so it isn't nearly as much of a problem.
I don't want to alter the current [a]ttack command in any way. Just because I ordered a unit to attack another, doesn't mean I want to specifically attack that unit later, after I've give other orders in between. Sometimes I'll want that but then I'll give a new attack command. Or use this set target command.
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luckywaldo7
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by luckywaldo7 » 24 May 2013, 18:04

Johannes wrote: don't want to alter the current [a]ttack command in any way. Just because I ordered a unit to attack another, doesn't mean I want to specifically attack that unit later, after I've give other orders in between. Sometimes I'll want that but then I'll give a new attack command. Or use this set target command.
I appreciate that point; I want basic functionality to be versatile, but not at the price of making it obtrusive. However, I find that the attack command as it is now, especially when there is set-target, is nearly useless. The problem is that you need to chose between an attack command and a move command, and you almost always chose the move command because if you stop moving you're dead.
Google_Frog wrote:Attack commands cause the unit to stop or to move a bit and there are many cases in which moving is bad. I use settarget to give Crabe a high-priority target which should be fired at if possible. I don't want the Crabe to give up it's armour bonus if the target happens to be momentarily obscured by something.
Good point, although maybe in that case, consider the reverse proposal. Instead of giving the attack command set-target capabilities, give the set-target command the attack capabilities it is missing (attack ground), and make it the new attack command.
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jamerlan
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by jamerlan » 27 May 2013, 13:54

Can someone please provide some examples where to use it? In which situations? which targets? I have no idea where can I use it.

In the past snipers were shooting at fleas. It was bad. But I guess now they choose targets much better and they will shoot bigger targets if they are in range.
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liotier
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by liotier » 01 Jun 2013, 10:19

albator wrote:That would also allow the user to define a priority within the priority list: Riot fire 1st on pewee then ak, then flash, etc...
Giving each type a target priority list would be useful - but where would edition happen ? In-game would break the game's flow entirely. So would players maintain a configuration file with the priority target types for each type ? That does not quite fit within the consensually normal practices. Just a few short default priorities to some types would work ergonomically, but making it too specific would be complex to balance and would weaken emergent behavior. Or just generic guidelines such as aiming for the strongest target available or the weakest or the one with resistance just below the what the shooting unit can inflict in single shot ? Do such algorithms already exist ?
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albator
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by albator » 01 Jun 2013, 12:22

liotier wrote:
albator wrote:That would also allow the user to define a priority within the priority list: Riot fire 1st on pewee then ak, then flash, etc...
Giving each type a target priority list would be useful - but where would edition happen ?
Just read the entire post....

Edit: I meant it could set in a file by the user (like autogroup) so the user can change it if he wants to)
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liotier
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Re: new "Set Target" command in 7.76!

Post by liotier » 02 Jun 2013, 19:35

albator wrote:I meant it could set in a file by the user (like autogroup) so the user can change it if he wants to)
Yet another widget I have yet to discover - and which does something I had always wanted to do with TA... I still have a lot to discover !
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