Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout spam

Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout spam

Classic game design, maintained to please you...

Moderator: Content Developer

User avatar
Beherith
Moderator
Posts: 4983
Joined: 26 Oct 2007, 16:21

Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout spam

Post by Beherith »

In late game ofc.

Im thinking of juno killing flea, jeffy and wezel.

How would you deal with it?
User avatar
Rumpelstiltskin
Posts: 292
Joined: 26 Jun 2012, 18:52

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

1)Remove a turret or modify a turret to have a weapon that deals very low AOE dmg every second to everything within a big radius?
1.1)and/or modify some units to have very low damage but big AOE weapons?

2)Slightly increase explosion damage of scouts?

3)Do nothing and make people get used to constructing walls around their bases?

A juno firing anti scouts missiles seems inappropriate.
A slow missile/delayed damage weapon to counter the fastest land units in game?Doesn't fit IMO.

ADDED
You can modify certain unit weapons to shoot extremely high burst while dealing less damage every shot thus preserving their exact dps while making them much more efficient against many low hp units(Can, Sumo, make the Krogoth laser a constant laser stream as oppose to a high reload high damage weapon).
Last edited by Rumpelstiltskin on 08 Aug 2012, 06:44, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
albator
Posts: 866
Joined: 14 Jan 2009, 14:20

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by albator »

1) nerf MM efficiency progressively like I explain here: http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=28087

The reason why and the dynamics of the game are explained in the post. I think that is the best solution. All other are just work around that will make more unba and change the stats of the unit too much. If you have huge eco you can spam any shit like crazy anyway and next brainstorm will be about AK, pewee, air scout and crawling bombs spam.


2) an example of bad solution would be to make scout like xta, expensive.

3) most important thing is that spam is one of the only way to lure t3 army firepower and it should be kept like that! Finding a way to prevent that to happen would mean to decrease the possibility of BA and to turn in into a C&C game where best eco win whater you do


*) also fix leveler, goliat and other unit that use to have more impact on unit before 0.89 could be nice but I am not 100% sure of how it affect the scout spam right now.
User avatar
SinbadEV
Posts: 6475
Joined: 02 May 2005, 03:56

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by SinbadEV »

Limit the number of scouts that can be built to like 20?
User avatar
albator
Posts: 866
Joined: 14 Jan 2009, 14:20

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by albator »

SinbadEV wrote:Limit the number of scouts that can be built to like 20?
remove t1 and t2, only t3 spam
User avatar
Rumpelstiltskin
Posts: 292
Joined: 26 Jun 2012, 18:52

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

Don't think it has anything to do with MM economy.
Scouts are not amazing at later stages of the game because they are the only unit which you can build that will allow you to fully use your eco.
they are amazing late game because you can build a horde of them and the game apparently lacks enough AOE damage in late game to stop this type of spam.

I still think that before changing anything because of crippling scout spams in late game we should check and see if maybe there is already an in game solution that people just need to get used to?
klapmongool
Posts: 843
Joined: 13 Aug 2007, 13:19

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by klapmongool »

I can remember scout spam being annoying. That was before I bought my new CPU and SSD. If any thing needs to be fixed it'd be something about the eco.


Edit: I mean that I don't have a problem gameplay-wise with scout spam. Also the only people I ever hear about it are those who relate it to low fps.
dansan
Server Owner & Developer
Posts: 1203
Joined: 29 May 2010, 23:40

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by dansan »

An annoying strategy at an annoying stage of the game is imo nothing that needs fixing mod-side.
Google_Frog
Moderator
Posts: 2450
Joined: 12 Oct 2007, 09:24

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by Google_Frog »

Buff some T2 units which have aoe or fast firing accurate weapons.
Azhukar
Posts: 74
Joined: 16 Apr 2012, 10:48

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by Azhukar »

If enemy has enough eco difference to kill you with scouts then you're playing bad.

So buff playing bad?
User avatar
PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
Posts: 10343
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by PicassoCT »

chainreacting weapons.. especially effective against a certain type.. idially one shot fired, moving down a whole row for damage..

Or make them even usefull for the enemy- for example a unit that uses lowerlevels as ammonition (magnetic units and then propell them towards the enemynes)

Another funny way of despam is a sort of "plague" artillerymine. If it hits a unit, it can infect the same kind of unit, so travelling in large packs with low hps becomes dangerous.

Envy you guys for allready beeing in the tweaky bits of game making. Live long and prosper!
User avatar
Johannes
Posts: 1265
Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 15:49

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by Johannes »

You want to do it because it takes CPU power, or because you don't like it?
User avatar
PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
Posts: 10343
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by PicassoCT »

Ahem.. because it makes the whole balancing a game ridiculous, if you have one type who spammed can overcome all others?
User avatar
Niobium
Posts: 456
Joined: 07 Dec 2008, 02:35

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by Niobium »

Imo the best solution is to allow AA to fire at land scouts.
  • Long-range weapons
  • Fast-moving projectiles
  • Tracking projectiles
    All the above means AA are the perfect units for destroying scouts before they enter the range of your other units and bait their shots.
  • Low collateral/side-effects
    Compared to adding new units or buffing certain units RoF/AoE/range making AA fire at scouts isn't going to effect much apart from lowering scout feasibility, especially late game where players can afford AA escorts.
  • Easy to do
    Changes would take less than 5 minutes.
  • "Natural" solution
    Basically changing AA is a natural solution in that standard gameplay already involves building AA. Compare this to adding a new unit whose sole purpose is killing scout spam late game, sure it solves the problem but it is so artificial, you're adding new game mechanics purely to counter a problematic mechanic instead of fixing it itself.
You don't want players playing from a checklist of things they have to do to not have their game ruined by bad mechanics, e.g. build an anti to stop game ending nukes, build a shield to stop game ending bertha shot, build a fighter shield to stop game ending air, build a stack of junos so you don't lose army to scouts, and only then start playing the actual game.

The main con I see is that AA is present in 1v1s, so you'll get a bunch of 1v1 players complaining that you've ruined the mod because kbots are now OP due to slow crashers preventing scout raiding or something.
User avatar
Johannes
Posts: 1265
Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 15:49

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by Johannes »

Actually making AA shoot ground (for low dmg) wouldn't be so bad.
But two things - making them shoot only at scouts is ridiculous and unintuitive, it's not elegant at all. And secondly it'd need a big balance overhaul for aa in order to not fuck up the game, with making AA range smaller or such.
If you keep AA as is and only change them to shoot scouts, well, you've ruined the games balance and made it more unintuitive.


And if we look at the late game scouts (let's say everyones computers can handle it), what's the problem? They are usable but there are ways to stop them already. Isn't the fact that you need a balanced mix of units lategame, a good thing?

You don't want players playing from a checklist of things they have to do to not have their game ruined by bad mechanics, e.g. build an anti to stop game ending nukes, build a shield to stop game ending bertha shot, build a fighter shield to stop game ending air, build a stack of junos so you don't lose army to scouts, and only then start playing the actual game.
While I agree that some of those things are not very interestingly done in BA, I'd just like to know what is it you consider the Actual Game then? Building krogs?
zerver
Spring Developer
Posts: 1358
Joined: 16 Dec 2006, 20:59

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by zerver »

In my mutator I have armed mexes that give more and more metal with added experience. They also have upgradable weapon range.

If some units that already today are good against spam would gain weapon range/firepower with experience, the problem would be solved. You spam a few hundred fleas and then the enemy suddenly has a Sumo that fires across half of the map. Pretty discouraging.
Ares
Balanced Annihilation Developer
Posts: 391
Joined: 19 Mar 2011, 13:43

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by Ares »

I have a few solutions:

The razerback's weapon shreds scouts, perhaps if it was mounted on a turret as an anti spam equiv to a sentinal/viper it could get the job done. A mobile version could be mounted onto the tremor or luger/pillager chassis, it would look awesome.

Add a t1 flamethrower tank or kbot, of a similar value to the warrior. Effective at what it does, fast, just expensive enough to not become spammable itself and ineffective against regular units.

Another suggestion would be a wide aoe turret (like rump said), affecting an area similar to that of a sheild with low continous damage output. I would imagine it being a similar price to a chainsaw. A mid range investment but very good vs scouts when it matters, it would be t1 or t2 (not commander built).

Alternatively, just let the chainsaw fire at land, with each missile of the burst tracking a unique target. It has huge range which would really cut other turrets some slack and it is underused in its current form. It's also the only AA turret that I could imagine firing at land and not looking ridiculous. (The chainsaw always looked so intimidating I initially assumed it could fire at land anyway, and I occasionally see noobs making it only to be dissapointed.)

I think that solution to the problem has to come from ROF or AOE combined with range or mobility - so that scouts can't easily bypass the unit.
Last edited by Ares on 08 Aug 2012, 14:15, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
SinbadEV
Posts: 6475
Joined: 02 May 2005, 03:56

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by SinbadEV »

What if scout unit's weapons did no damage to T2 and above structures... this would encourage players to tech up it would let people spam them if they want but it wouldn't be useful as a means of crippling infrastructure.
zerver
Spring Developer
Posts: 1358
Joined: 16 Dec 2006, 20:59

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by zerver »

One other thing might be to make the wrecks of scouts metal rich (maybe >90% of build cost) and more persistent to damage so that you are feeding metal to the enemy by spamming. Like it is now, a wreck rarely remains after the scout has been killed.

The downside is that it may lag even more if all these wrecks are not reclaimed in time :mrgreen:
User avatar
albator
Posts: 866
Joined: 14 Jan 2009, 14:20

Re: Brainstorm - How to mitigate the effect of cheap scout s

Post by albator »

Niobium wrote:Imo the best solution is to allow AA to fire at land scouts.
  • Long-range weapons
  • Fast-moving projectiles
  • Tracking projectiles
    All the above means AA are the perfect units for destroying scouts before they enter the range of your other units and bait their shots.
  • Low collateral/side-effects
    Compared to adding new units or buffing certain units RoF/AoE/range making AA fire at scouts isn't going to effect much apart from lowering scout feasibility, especially late game where players can afford AA escorts.
  • Easy to do
    Changes would take less than 5 minutes.
  • "Natural" solution
    Basically changing AA is a natural solution in that standard gameplay already involves building AA. Compare this to adding a new unit whose sole purpose is killing scout spam late game, sure it solves the problem but it is so artificial, you're adding new game mechanics purely to counter a problematic mechanic instead of fixing it itself.
You don't want players playing from a checklist of things they have to do to not have their game ruined by bad mechanics, e.g. build an anti to stop game ending nukes, build a shield to stop game ending bertha shot, build a fighter shield to stop game ending air, build a stack of junos so you don't lose army to scouts, and only then start playing the actual game.

The main con I see is that AA is present in 1v1s, so you'll get a bunch of 1v1 players complaining that you've ruined the mod because kbots are now OP due to slow crashers preventing scout raiding or something.
I think this is a bad idea cause it makes scout completely useless as soon as fighter are up.


You don't want players playing from a checklist of things they have to do to not have their game ruined by bad mechanics, e.g. build an anti to stop game ending nukes, build a shield to stop game ending bertha shot, build a fighter shield to stop game ending air, build a stack of junos so you don't lose army to scouts, and only then start playing the actual game.
This is actually the proper counter argument to what you ask for... If you are able to scout you don't need all that. This is the reasoning that 1 bar rank have: building all defense and play around with the unit, but most player are not that stupid to make only defense and wait for death.

making retrieving information less viable makes game more static and more porcy and bring more eco then more unit spam then more lag.
Post Reply

Return to “Balanced Annihilation”