Balance considerations - Page 2

Balance considerations

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Silentwings
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Silentwings »

No, it's not a 'fact' that 1.5k com metal would kill teching entirely. It's an untested theory of yours.

Agreed on co-operation.
klapmongool
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by klapmongool »

Righht.... So the problem you want to fix is teching on DSD. Let me guess. DSD with a lot of players... perhaps 8 or more per team?

See the problem there is not that the comm metal is 2.5k, that isn't a problem in any normal game. The problem is that there are too many players for the map. Play Koom valley with 8 players if you want a large game. See if the comm metal will give a techer a good advantage.
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smoth
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by smoth »

solution for 8v8 dsd.

alter start spawn gadget, detects dsd, units never spawn.

PROBLEM SOLVED
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Johannes
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Johannes »

Silentwings wrote:No, it's not a 'fact' that 1.5k com metal would kill teching entirely. It's an untested theory of yours.
Somebody might still try it out of habit, but it's just obvious that it's a shit contribution to a team.


klapmongool wrote: See the problem there is not that the comm metal is 2.5k, that isn't a problem in any normal game.
Debatable.
klapmongool
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by klapmongool »

Johannes wrote:
Silentwings wrote:No, it's not a 'fact' that 1.5k com metal would kill teching entirely. It's an untested theory of yours.
Somebody might still try it out of habit, but it's just obvious that it's a shit contribution to a team.


klapmongool wrote: See the problem there is not that the comm metal is 2.5k, that isn't a problem in any normal game.
Debatable.
Everything is debatable. I have played a lot lately and I have not seen this problem. So maybe you can show us how this is a problem in normal games? Maybe you can back it up with replays of cases in which the problem occurred?
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Silentwings
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Silentwings »

Righht.... So the problem you want to fix is teching on DSD.
I was not trying to 'fix a problem' and did not mention any specific map. You might regard teching on DSD a problem - I don't. I was suggesting a way to slightly lengthen the t1 phase of large games, not a way to abolish teching.
klapmongool
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by klapmongool »

Silentwings wrote:
Righht.... So the problem you want to fix is teching on DSD.
I was not trying to 'fix a problem' and did not mention any specific map. You might regard teching on DSD a problem - I don't. I was suggesting a way to slightly lengthen the t1 phase of large games, not a way to abolish teching.
Well, outside of 8v8+ dsd 2.5k comm metal is no problem.
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Beherith
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Beherith »

Most of you mentioning 8v8 dsd are a bit out of touch. Its quite uncommon to see it nowadays.
klapmongool
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by klapmongool »

Beherith wrote:Most of you mentioning 8v8 dsd are a bit out of touch. Its quite uncommon to see it nowadays.
Also why 2.5k is not a problem :)
Senna
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Senna »

2,5k com is ok, fight for metal. otherwise if metal decreased on comweck compush will be even stronger, because he knows he will lose less metal, so more push with it.

About thuds and hammer, i think hammer needs a small buff, thud is pretty OK

and about rockos and storm, storm is stronger and cheap than rocko.

Rocko need time to start firing, while storm can fire it instantly, and its cheap. Might this is cuz its arm but it seems a bit op for core side.

Its trure core doesnt have warriors and smart rezzers like arm does but still its best long range unit comparison each other, and the most used.

Hammer is almost never used, thuds are used more often, maybe because warrior quits the role of hammer a bit?
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Johannes
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Johannes »

klapmongool wrote:
Johannes wrote:
klapmongool wrote: See the problem there is not that the comm metal is 2.5k, that isn't a problem in any normal game.
Debatable.
Everything is debatable. I have played a lot lately and I have not seen this problem. So maybe you can show us how this is a problem in normal games? Maybe you can back it up with replays of cases in which the problem occurred?
I don't really need to. Everyone's seen many a game which is decided almost solely by who gets a single (or double) comwreck.
The "problem" is obvious, but a matter of taste, like anything. Like it or don't.
Ares
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Ares »

Senna, concerning storm vs rocko, I have never noticed an imbalance in 1v1s with regard to the two

I think 16 extra metal for a rocko is a fair price to pay for 11% more acceleration and 5% faster movement speed compared to their storm counterparts.

Rockos have more manoeuvrability and are more responsive to microing. This gives them a significant edge when it comes to dodging rockets. I believe this is what makes them capable of fighting back - seemingly against the odds.
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Silentwings
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Silentwings »

Well, outside of 8v8+ dsd 2.5k comm metal is no problem.
I had said:
I was not trying to 'fix a problem' and did not mention any specific map.
:roll:
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Johannes
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Johannes »

Ares wrote:Senna, concerning storm vs rocko, I have never noticed an imbalance in 1v1s with regard to the two

I think 16 extra metal for a rocko is a fair price to pay for 11% more acceleration and 5% faster movement speed compared to their storm counterparts.

Rockos have more manoeuvrability and are more responsive to microing. This gives them a significant edge when it comes to dodging rockets. I believe this is what makes them capable of fighting back - seemingly against the odds.
Storm is clearly the superior one of them. What you didn't mention is how Storm has more Hp, which combined with faster, cheaper building makes it repair significantly faster.

Arm still has some advantages, like cheaper wind and existence of flea to countereffect Storm>Rocko.

What I'd like to see btw, is rocko hp increased 650->661, so 1 direct hit from a janus wouldn't destroy it straight.

And I'm not sure about this, but vs LLTs the rockos extra speed might work against it since it takes longer time to brake, so your click has to be more accurate?
Ares
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Ares »

Storm is inferior and its cost reflects this.

In any event Arm dominates t1 kbots thanks to the peewee, which is easily the most cost effective unit early game (joint with flash).

Although ak is better in theory because it slightly outranges peewees, the way it turns its whole body away before turning the torso back to face a kited target means that an Arm player of equivalent skill has ample time to avoid taking damage from chasing.

As a more offensive unit the peewee requires less micro than the ak - which requires babysiting and reactionary play to stay alive, in contrast with the peewee's point and click nature.

Fortunately, this frees up Arm players' time to micro their rockos against a slightly higher number of storms and so t1 kbot balance is achieved. Without a thud or hammer in sight.
Senna
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Senna »

Ares wrote:Senna, concerning storm vs rocko, I have never noticed an imbalance in 1v1s with regard to the two

I think 16 extra metal for a rocko is a fair price to pay for 11% more acceleration and 5% faster movement speed compared to their storm counterparts.

Rockos have more manoeuvrability and are more responsive to microing. This gives them a significant edge when it comes to dodging rockets. I believe this is what makes them capable of fighting back - seemingly against the odds.
Well the thing is what johannes said, arm has cheap windmills and some other t1 bot, better support than core, esample is warrior and arm rezzers, arm rezzer is mutch smarter and faster than necros.

But hammer vs thud, i think hammer is eclipsed by warriors and make hammer role bad
klapmongool
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by klapmongool »

Silentwings wrote:
Well, outside of 8v8+ dsd 2.5k comm metal is no problem.
I had said:
I was not trying to 'fix a problem' and did not mention any specific map.
:roll:

Johannes was however. If you didn't think I was talking to you, I probably wasn't talking to you.
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Pxtl
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Pxtl »

@Senna

TFC buffed hammers once... I regret to admit that I was one of the people pushing for the Hammer buff.

It was a very bad scene.
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Johannes
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by Johannes »

How is saying "it'll slow techers down by 3-4 minutes" not a direct reference to DSD-specific build?
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ginekolog
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Re: Balance considerations

Post by ginekolog »

Pxtl wrote:@Senna

TFC buffed hammers once... I regret to admit that I was one of the people pushing for the Hammer buff.

It was a very bad scene.
I rememer, everyone spamed only hamer/thuds. But the change was that their projectile allways hit target(predict) and that was op imo.

Com corpse 2500 is ok. I allmost never blow up my com, in good players hand com is super unit at start.

I use thuds on hill terrain where they get range or where are mass wrecks.

What might need change is ARM nuke. It should load 180 sec like core, giving players extra minute to prepare. Fast nuking in 5v5 is not fun way to end game tbh, just boring.
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