Rank Limit - Why BA died

Rank Limit - Why BA died

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arx
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Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by arx » 13 Apr 2012, 12:14

Let me just explain something

I played TA when it was new and I went through two seperate phases of playing BA, when it came out and also a couple of years ago.

I would like to have another go at it, there's not much out in the mainstream. So I download Spring and BA.. Well I have checked several times over the weeks and have seen at max 6 active players with some specs, but usually just 3 or so players.

I can't even play with them.

And there is nobody to play to rank up with.

This is why BA is as dead as it is. No newcomers can play. No old players can return.

Really, really stupid. Rank limit by this point is an arrogant pointless feature for BA servers
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Beherith
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by Beherith » 13 Apr 2012, 12:53

I dont agree that rank limit is the reason BA is declining, but I do agree that it is an issue, especially with the current player count.

Rank limit was also used to prevent smurfing to some extent, but thanks to bibim Spads now has much more powerful tools to deal with that.

Ill talk to the autohost owners and discuss their thoughts on the subject. I personally would like to see rank limits removed.
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SirArtturi
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by SirArtturi » 13 Apr 2012, 13:06

Why dont you guys host your own games? There is no need for autohosts if you have the people willing to play.
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Beherith
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by Beherith » 13 Apr 2012, 13:41

Uh, I just checked, and a total of 3 hosts have a rank limit. A few spads hosts, which arent used most often.
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very_bad_soldier
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by very_bad_soldier » 13 Apr 2012, 14:02

SirArtturi wrote:Why dont you guys host your own games? There is no need for autohosts if you have the people willing to play.
The higher you put the bar for newbs to get into a game the more will leave.
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SirArtturi
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by SirArtturi » 13 Apr 2012, 14:24

very_bad_soldier wrote:
SirArtturi wrote:Why dont you guys host your own games? There is no need for autohosts if you have the people willing to play.
The higher you put the bar for newbs to get into a game the more will leave.
Sarcasm?

Cos' its easy as hell. And dont cost you a thing.
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Pxtl
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by Pxtl » 13 Apr 2012, 14:56

Real reasons BA died:

1) Starcraft 2

2) Zero-K splitting the playerbase.
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Carpenter
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by Carpenter » 13 Apr 2012, 14:59

Spads1, 2 and 3 are the only autohosts at the moment with a rank limit. Happy? Also, there are 2 Spads hosts for beginners. There's a reason why these 3 other Spads have a rank limit, it wouldn't be a joy for a newbie to get steamrolled by the oldies, right? So I guess the problem is solved?
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Johannes
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by Johannes » 13 Apr 2012, 15:34

BA died? Maybe DSD did.
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Mr. Bob
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by Mr. Bob » 13 Apr 2012, 19:06

And maybe a lack of proper advertising, messy and sparse introductions to the game, the lack of a single install, a vague lobby, an unfinished engine, recycled content across many games (making them all look like mods of some non-existent-mother-game), a somewhat exclusive community, no soundtrack, maps that have borders that make them look hilariously choppy, a bad title, etc etc etc.

I'm no expert, but from where I sit, I honestly think the biggest problem is just a severe and ridiculous lack of polish. You have enough coders, that's good. But, now you need artists, designers, and someone to bundle it together and put out an exclusive hard release that is not related to any previous spring endeavors. As in, not featured prominently on this site, and without using some premade "one size fits all" lobby system.

If you want all of this to be popular and successful, stop trying to collectivize everything. As nice as it is to have a community driven game, at some point, there has to be a dedicated team that has exclusive rights to everything in the project. The community has built the engine, that's good. Now you need a team to make a game.

As developers, you should be branching outside of the bounds of this site/community and looking for dedicated talent. There are thousands of people all over the place looking to get involved in something like this. The problem is, everyone here won't look beyond the little community of coders and somewhat talented artists. And, as members of that community slowly leave, no one stretches out to anyone else.

It's like a bunch of scientists got together in a bunker deep in the earth to make a new piece of technology. But, they never left the bunker, and as people outside the bunker moved on with life and progressed technologically, the scientists in the bunker just sat in their little shithole and wondered, "why is nothing happening?"

You need someone to step the fuck up and organize all of this. And by organize, I mean organize. Players shouldn't have to jump through the hoops caused by the messy and dysfunctional communication of a community just to play a game. Of course you are going to lose players.

This is what was so frustrating for me when I was making that big model pack for BAR. It's like every single decision has to be run through and entire fucking mob of disorganized opinions with no clear vision. Making a game for everyone is the best way to make a game for no one, and that's exactly what is happening here. The person that steps up and organizes this should honestly have the mindset of "fuck this community, I'm going to make what I think is fun." That's how every successful and legitimately decent game has been made. Otherwise, you end up with either an unpolished mess, or you get nowhere at all.

So yeah, the only people that things like you are saying are driving away are the people who are already here. But that's your problem. You need to stop catering to the people already here, and just make something that you personally find entertaining. You also need to scout for talent outside of this community.
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smoth
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by smoth » 13 Apr 2012, 19:15

yep. what bob said!

also "somewhat talented artists" woo hoo, I get to be talented!
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Pxtl
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by Pxtl » 13 Apr 2012, 19:42

Behe's the BA team now, and he's doing spectacular stuff... but he's got a *lot* of ground to cover.
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CarRepairer
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by CarRepairer » 13 Apr 2012, 21:45

Mr. Bob wrote:recycled content across many games (making them all look like mods of some non-existent-mother-game)
I found this to be a strange thing to say. Are you not aware that these games are mods of Total Annihilation? That's why they share many models. It's not recycling, there actually is a mother game.
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Mr. Bob
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by Mr. Bob » 13 Apr 2012, 22:00

Pxtl wrote:Behe's the BA team now, and he's doing spectacular stuff... but he's got a *lot* of ground to cover.
Beherith is doing a fantastic job, yes. Infact, he's basically functioning as the person stepping up and organizing everything. The problem is, he's one person. He needs a team. Ideally a dozen or so people. There are tons of people everywhere looking to get into this sort of thing, you just have to make the effort to find them in a place other than this site. It's unrealistic to expect Behe to function as a coder, a 2d/3d artist, a designer, and a PR person. It's just ridiculous.
CarRepairer wrote:I found this to be a strange thing to say. Are you not aware that these games are mods of Total Annihilation? That's why they share many models. It's not recycling, there actually is a mother game.
Yes, I'm aware. I'm referring to how it looks to people on the outside. Hense "look like."
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Senna
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by Senna » 13 Apr 2012, 22:30

Carpenter wrote:Spads1, 2 and 3 are the only autohosts at the moment with a rank limit. Happy? Also, there are 2 Spads hosts for beginners. There's a reason why these 3 other Spads have a rank limit, it wouldn't be a joy for a newbie to get steamrolled by the oldies, right? So I guess the problem is solved?
THAT is not a real excuse, Rank limit is just dipshit, The best way a noob can learn is playing against good players
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nightcold
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by nightcold » 13 Apr 2012, 23:13

Mr. Bob wrote:
Pxtl wrote:Behe's the BA team now, and he's doing spectacular stuff... but he's got a *lot* of ground to cover.
Beherith is doing a fantastic job, yes. Infact, he's basically functioning as the person stepping up and organizing everything. The problem is, he's one person. He needs a team. Ideally a dozen or so people. There are tons of people everywhere looking to get into this sort of thing, you just have to make the effort to find them in a place other than this site. It's unrealistic to expect Behe to function as a coder, a 2d/3d artist, a designer, and a PR person. It's just ridiculous.
i think it is a bit idealistic to expect a team to form in a open source project were people don't get paid, people do this out of personal interest and chances are they will only do things interests them. For example, If i am interested in making a WW2 or Fantasy game i will not put too many hours in a BA remake.

this has been said before, but if you put into context the amount of skilled man hours put into the plurality of projects here and instead direct them into one major project, spring would be an incredibly polished and well done game by now. But you will not get that simply because of the nature of spring/open source, and you have a strong ethic defending plurality here.

(i might add that spring is not a game, it is an engine. I like to think of it as a set of mods without a main game, i think it is a mistake to think of each individual mods as a game independently)

The community here is also incredible conservative(or at least was). I remember a while back encouraging them to communicate with some of the major youtube SC2 casters and getting the casters to promote spring. (Maybe one or two heavy weights of the community here try out spring with the sc2 caster and they can tell him about spring while they actually play it together , this would immediately make spring known to about 100k people who are interested in rts games). But it was very much resisted, yet no one could tell me why they did not want to do it. Mods have also been condemned in the past for not being TA enough, and are being condemned today for being too TA. I also had a talk with the guy who made the "engines of war" mod, he too had an awful time with how to community treated him.

also, where do you propose too find people that will help out in spring???
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SanadaUjiosan
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by SanadaUjiosan » 13 Apr 2012, 23:24

Pertaining to teams, I think they are really something that happens rather than something that can be made... as pointed out, to get like-minded people who are able or willing to work together (especially when dealing with time zones in a global community) is just plain tough.

Beherith is doing a great job, and I give him a thumbs up.
nightcold wrote:The community here is also incredible conservative(or at least was). I remember a while back encouraging them to communicate with some of the major youtube SC2 casters and getting the casters to promote spring. (Maybe one or two heavy weights of the community here try out spring with the sc2 caster and they can tell him about spring while they actually play it together , this would immediately make spring known to about 100k people who are interested in rts games). But it was very much resisted, yet no one could tell me why they did not want to do it. Mods have also been condemned in the past for not being TA enough, and are being condemned today for being too TA. I also had a talk with the guy who made the "engines of war" mod, he too had an awful time with how to community treated him.
I'm just throwing out a "what I heard" here, but I believe the most objective reason I've seen for this is simply that Spring is technically still a WiP and once it is "finished", a much more avid advertising campaign will unfold. Personally, I don't think this'll ever happen, but hey, I'm a pessimist :)
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Jazcash
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by Jazcash » 13 Apr 2012, 23:48

I've noticed the BA 1v1 scene has been slightly more visible recently. Even if it's the same players playing 1v1, it's still nice to see 1v1 games running every time I come online. As I've said before, 1v1 is where BA really shines and the more focus that's put on making 1v1/2v2 BA games more common, the better. Tourneys are great for BA, the more we have, the better. It would be nice to get a regular monthly tourney going.
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KaiserJ
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by KaiserJ » 13 Apr 2012, 23:54

@arx: that's not many people; i'm willing to bet you live in the same timezone as me

for my money add clanstack to the growing list of "why BA is dying". (maybe it's not a problem anymore. i should have a go again sometime soon and see)

@bob (edit: specifically regarding your model pack): looking at this argument objectively, when you first announced your project, it seemed clear (to me at least) that it would be pyra doing a texture, and you would do all of the models... there was never an appeal for "hey i'm looking to build a team for x"... it seemed a closed project; that's why the majority of what you ended up with was so many people putting on an expert hat and telling/ suggesting for what you should do, and conversely very few people offering to help. i would have been interesting in helping, from the outset, if it had been an option. it was not.

@nightcold: there was not resistance to the idea of getting spring exposed on a starcraft stream, it was more of a "would be nice, probably won't happen" vibe. ideas are great but you actually have to follow through with them; it doesn't take much to send the starcraft guy an email and find out if your idea was good or not.

engines of war example is the antithesis of what happened here; person in question asked for help, assembled a team, had them produce content, and then, from what i understand, vanished off the face of the earth.
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Senna
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Re: Rank Limit - Why BA died

Post by Senna » 14 Apr 2012, 00:29

nightcold wrote:
Mr. Bob wrote:
Pxtl wrote:Behe's the BA team now, and he's doing spectacular stuff... but he's got a *lot* of ground to cover.
Beherith is doing a fantastic job, yes. Infact, he's basically functioning as the person stepping up and organizing everything. The problem is, he's one person. He needs a team. Ideally a dozen or so people. There are tons of people everywhere looking to get into this sort of thing, you just have to make the effort to find them in a place other than this site. It's unrealistic to expect Behe to function as a coder, a 2d/3d artist, a designer, and a PR person. It's just ridiculous.
i think it is a bit idealistic to expect a team to form in a open source project were people don't get paid, people do this out of personal interest and chances are they will only do things interests them. For example, If i am interested in making a WW2 or Fantasy game i will not put too many hours in a BA remake.

this has been said before, but if you put into context the amount of skilled man hours put into the plurality of projects here and instead direct them into one major project, spring would be an incredibly polished and well done game by now. But you will not get that simply because of the nature of spring/open source, and you have a strong ethic defending plurality here.

(i might add that spring is not a game, it is an engine. I like to think of it as a set of mods without a main game, i think it is a mistake to think of each individual mods as a game independently)

The community here is also incredible conservative(or at least was). I remember a while back encouraging them to communicate with some of the major youtube SC2 casters and getting the casters to promote spring. (Maybe one or two heavy weights of the community here try out spring with the sc2 caster and they can tell him about spring while they actually play it together , this would immediately make spring known to about 100k people who are interested in rts games). But it was very much resisted, yet no one could tell me why they did not want to do it. Mods have also been condemned in the past for not being TA enough, and are being condemned today for being too TA. I also had a talk with the guy who made the "engines of war" mod, he too had an awful time with how to community treated him.

also, where do you propose too find people that will help out in spring???
This is just not true..

All the links, are teams who does mods for free and they aint easy to make...

http://www.ctdp.net/projects.html
http://www.rfactorcentral.com/list.cfm? ... s&type=All
http://www.rfactorcentral.com/list.cfm? ... s&type=All

and yes they have teams working there, and They dont get paid for it!
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