7.4X Balance Change Reasoning

[Nixa]

Command spam is why the way was changed. They don't show metal because they simply don't produce metal the way they used to. Basically the MM are just buildings that are recognised by the gadget and then allow so much E to be converted to M. Ie/ You build a T2 MM and that lets the gadget know there is potential to convert 600 E to M if you have excess E above where you set you MM slider (that little box). Take a look into it some more, all opinions aside it is a good change (even if a little hard to understand ATM).

As for BA future design - Most here on the forum are elitest that don't want change (ok, may like some changes but don't make that known). I would like to see two games aswell, one called BA 7.42 (1v1) where all non-balance changes are applied and 7.42 where progress can be made for the majority of the community.

[momfreeek]

You always say people are just averse to any change, but that's not true. I'm only against bad changes that don't do much to address the problems with the game.

your opinions. you seem to be working from the assumption that what you think are the problems are the same as what everyone else thinks (or maybe you're just sure that anyone with different opinions is wrong).

But the prime problems with air still stay, or are worse after this patch - too much blind RPS, and too little micro possibility.

your opinions. Many players prefer macro anyway.

I don't see anythign wrong with fixing your problems.. but to expect someone else to do it (its probably not so easy) while also expecting them to ignore all the things they feel are problems is.. frankly.. ridiculous.

[Wombat]

Most here on the forum are elitest that don't want change

ppl dont want removing stuff that worked well for couple of years (what doesnt mean it doesnt needs to be changed(whatever that means))

even if a little hard to understand ATM

well, then u shouldnt be suprised about the negative comments. among most of these fixes that are supposed to make game more transparent, this is complete opposite. i simply want to SEE whats going on. (point is to not implement features that are not finished and then whine @ whining)

also constant clicking is bit problematic, another bit too brutal change in my opinion.

[momfreeek]

even if a little hard to understand ATM

well, then u shouldnt be suprised about the negative comments. among most of these fixes that are supposed to make game more transparent, this is complete opposite. i simply want to SEE whats going on. (point is to not implement features that are not finished and then whine @ whining)

also constant clicking is bit problematic, another bit too brutal change in my opinion.

I think more are glad to see new things. Its only a few making many negative comments. Its much easier to see how many metal makers are working now.. there's a number. Widget could be better (needs a tooltip at least)

[Hobo Joe]

I was very happy to see that there was an update, after coming back to Spring after a long break for other things. Then I looked at the update notes and they're all blatantly geared directly toward oversized games with people who don't understand build orders or unit mixing or basically how to play at all.

Samsons, HLT, T2 fighters, EMP bombers, LRPC, none of these things are overpowered EXCEPT in games with a high level of bad players who A) enjoy porc and making bad build choices and B) have at least one but probably 2-3 people doing ONLY tech for late-game mega-eco spam. You cannot balance games like that and 1v1-4v4 games at the same time. I was really excited when I saw Behe was taking over BA, it's disappointing to see he's just handing it off to people who just want to balance 8v8DSD without testing or consulting with better players and other game sizes. At least the non-balance stuff is nice.

[Nixa]

I was very happy to see that there was an update, after coming back to Spring after a long break for other things. Then I looked at the update notes and they're all blatantly geared directly toward oversized games with people who don't understand build orders or unit mixing or basically how to play at all.

Samsons, HLT, T2 fighters, EMP bombers, LRPC, none of these things are overpowered EXCEPT in games with a high level of bad players who A) enjoy porc and making bad build choices and B) have at least one but probably 2-3 people doing ONLY tech for late-game mega-eco spam. You cannot balance games like that and 1v1-4v4 games at the same time. I was really excited when I saw Behe was taking over BA, it's disappointing to see he's just handing it off to people who just want to balance 8v8DSD without testing or consulting with better players and other game sizes. At least the non-balance stuff is nice.

How do you know more people weren't consulted? Is it stated somewhere? FYI all BA devs have the power to revert any changes they wanted before this release. Yes these changes will have an effect on larger games, but in reality (possibly the exception of the bomber change) will have little to no effect on small games. Spamming one or two unit types at the enemy will still be just as effective as before.

Simple truth is you haven't tried it, and therefore can only speculate that it will change gameplay. Why should anyone listen to people basing their arguments on pure speculation?

Random thing that was just said in main as I wrote this

[4:10:13 PM] <[EI]Epicock> the part that is getting old isnt dsd
[4:10:17 PM] * PlanetWars2 has left #main (Quit)
[4:10:24 PM] <[EI]Epicock> its BA, a game that hasnt changed in 5 years
[4:10:25 PM] * Suliman has left #main (Quit: Exiting)
[4:10:29 PM] <[EI]Epicock> AA was way better

[Johannes]

Fighter change is the biggest thing for small games, they are constantly used and over enemy aa too at times (but no more). Especially against bladewings.

Samsons will see a bit less use, same for hlt, not a drastic change tho. Core veh will have trouble vs bots on some maps due to these though.

Mex change is same impact regardless of game size, just more e for everyone for no clear reason.

In longer games autoheal change will matter too, even if most t1 units are roughly unchanged by it.

Antinuke change is big impact for small games, but a good thing imo.


And if you just want change for changes sake like Tribulex, why not just play another game?

[TheFatController]

FYI all BA devs have the power to revert any changes they wanted before this release.

Would have been nice to know that in advance

[Nixa]

Fighter change is the biggest thing for small games, they are constantly used and over enemy aa too at times (but no more). Especially against bladewings.

True, may need to build more than one type of ground unit now.

Samsons will see a bit less use, same for hlt, not a drastic change tho. Core veh will have trouble vs bots on some maps due to these though.

If you want veh and bots to be the same on all maps, why have bots and veh?

Mex change is same impact regardless of game size, just more e for everyone for no clear reason.

Only 3e per mex, T2 still has drain. If anything you should be complaining you get more m not e.

In longer games autoheal change will matter too, even if most t1 units are roughly unchanged by it.

Just to clarify it is IDLE autoheal.

Antinuke change is big impact for small games, but a good thing imo.

Positive comment

And if you just want change for changes sake like Tribulex, why not just play another game?

Change for progress is good, change for change sake is a bit here nor there.

[dansan]

also why t1 mex doesnt require e to work anymore ?

noob-trap

could u explain, coz i dont really know how is it nubtrab. lack of pop-out DONT MAKE ADVSOLARMMECO U NUB is bigger nubtrap :D

lack of E makes your mex stop -> unexpected, hinders building up E-producers -> noob-trap

[TheFatController]

lack of E makes your mex stop -> unexpected, hinders building up E-producers -> noob-trap

It becomes expected after the first time it happens just like a million other things in BA, dealing with these things is part of an adaptive process called 'learning how to play a game'.

[Beherith]

Basically, the counter argument to the t1 mexes taking e is one could write a widget to prioritize e consumption by waiting constructors and stopping turrets fire to always make sure there is E to run as per the priority queue.

The command spam produced by such a widget would be undesirable - while only giving the plus M to players who have the widget.

Same with metal maker widgets, bomber control, ghost radar. All these were included in order to level the playing field.

[TheFatController]

Should be able to find out the threshold where sending too many commands actually affects the performance of a game (scaled to # of players even maybe) and log a message to console "WARNING: Beherith has sent 1200 commands in the last 6 seconds, this may affect game performance" then the host can tell them to stop or kick them (tbh that should be built into the engine anyway to stop someone from making a griefy widget that gives 100 fleas hundreds of orders a frame).

[Johannes]

Instead of designing the game around what widgets can possibly do, how about just turning the current widgets into gadgets and disallowing user widgets from giving orders (/nohelp)?

[Manmax]

I played many times ba but it's only now that I learn that mex use e.

Generally speaking, I find it good to see changes geared towards large games as I personally like them and as they attract many players.

At the end of the day, if we put side auto-healing (bc it's only idle), bertha range (bc height can compensate), fighters nerf (they were already weak), and not talking about hlt & samson nerf and emp bombers, for me the most troubling change is.... D gun is now aiming!

Real skills were required to be accurate with d gun! We lose a precious way t
o distinguish between noobs and good players! it's a totally new game!

[Niobium]

for me the most troubling change is.... D gun is now aiming!

Real skills were required to be accurate with d gun! We lose a precious way to distinguish between noobs and good players! it's a totally new game!

It doesn't aim-ahead or do any sort of prediction if aiming at a unit, so if the unit is moving it will pretty much always result in a miss.

[Cheesecan]

Get yer facts right nubs. The engine does have a command spam limit since the last version due to widget I wrote that crashed the game by cmd spam. Something like cmds/sec.

[Gota]

Instead of designing the game around what widgets can possibly do, how about just turning the current widgets into gadgets and disallowing user widgets from giving orders (/nohelp)?

But but...the QQ!!!

[bibim]

A few remarks concerning what I could read in this thread:

• 1v1s shouldn't be underestimated:
  
  (sure these data concern all Spring games, not BA only, but still, 1v1s aren't so rare in BA...)
• This release contains much more gameplay affecting changes at the same time than usually. By principle I'm not against changes, but one must consider that for now, one of BA's strengths was that it has been very enjoyable to play already without requiring big gameplay changes (for years ?). Players got used to this gameplay a lot. I would consider either introducing these gameplay changes much more progressively (adjusting or reversing them if needed before introducing the next changes), either changing mod name to differentiate "BA legacy" from "new BA" (as it had been done for AA --> BA ?). Also, maybe a release containing all changes but major gameplay affecting ones would be a good start ?
• It is true that active BA player base hasn't grown for years:
  
  However, I don't think it is really related to gameplay (or maybe just the com-nap thing ?), I think it is more related to outdated graphics, and Spring/lobby/BA/maps finding/installing/configuring steps, which are more complex than in standard games.
  Also, sure BA community isn't very noob-friendly, but is it really worse than in other games ?

[Wombat]

ack of E makes your mex stop -> unexpected, hinders building up E-producers -> noob-trap

i have never seen mexes that doesnt produce m coz of lack of e... dunno how badly u would have to estall :D