BA dynamics (gamelength, techlevel(s), costs)

[bobbelurman]

First of all, a big thanks to Owen for all his work and continous improvements of our beloved BA mod.

Now, I have for approximately these last ~6 months noticed a change in the game dynamics that I personally do not like. Im gonna vent this here to see if there's any consensus on this matter or if its just my own perverted mind which is the problem.

Now. In the old days, ie before winter/spring 2010, I would almost NEVER see T3 units built. Big berthas too were uncommon and nukes was not built every game.

I dont pay much notice to the changelogs so I cannot tell exactly what is the issue here. But what I do now is in the last half year or so it seems that DSDgames (ye I know I know) that once used to be fast-paced T1 games with lots of action back and forth is no longer. Now there's ALWAYS teching, it used to be reserved for the pros but even nublets do it now, EVERY game. As I see it there has been a profound change in the dynamics, hard to explain, but the result now is that games that used to last 25-40 minutes with lots of actions, now last 45-75 minutes where lagouts due to extreme spam/unitcount is a regular occurence.

Can someone enlighten me, where did BA change (and how)?. I remember I used to enjoy the fast-paced dynamic games lots more than I enjoy the regular (almost every game) porcfests that are nowadays. Every game is more of a routine now, there's little room for experimenting/impulsivity. A classic DSD nowadays is meet at middle, build front, idle for 10 minutes while teammates do nothing but build fusions, then blablabla everyone has teched and no fronts can be broken (in the end its usually just luck/who has most air that decides outcome).

Anyone else see this change too? BTW I still love BA+DSD, its just changed a bit for the worse imo. Input appreciated.

Did T2 become too cheap/easy? Why do we have T3 units all the time? Is T1 too weak now???

[Marked]

TROLLSIPOPS AND LOLLIPOPS

1) Gollies and Fatboys have too much power imo

2) t2 units are more enjoyable to play with, but yes everybody now seems to go t3...
Things like limiting units and nanos never seem to work, so changing unit properties might be the only way forward.

Then you have to have people willing to test it...

[Wombat]

I remember I used to enjoy the fast-paced dynamic games lots more than I enjoy the regular (almost every game) porcfests that are nowadays. Every game is more of a routine now, there's little room for experimenting/impulsivity. A classic DSD nowadays is meet at middle, build front, idle for 10 minutes while teammates do nothing but build fusions

who are u and how dare u to steal bobbels account

[Johannes]

DSD is all about trends.

[Gota]

Its not necessarily the balance.
The game evolves and if what you say, bobble, is true it might mean that teching is the safest way of playing in a team game on dsd which is why most games end up with people teching.
since DSD is very played even newbies learned how to tech up after playing it so long and do it as well.

It can also be that the playerbase changed either different people play now or the same people just started playing differently cause of stagnation and playing the same thing over and over.

[bobbelurman]

Ok, what if

t2 got more expensive/buildtime -> more chance of winning games with t1

t3 got whole lot more expensive

gollies/fatties get lots more expensive, no t1-ruining units (big games get ruined in 3 minutes by microing earlywhored gollie)

t2 power units like big bertha, adv fusion gets more expensive

increase dps of t1 units

have t2 vehicles/bots be more specialized instead of "instawin" units like arty bots (core) or gollies. Nowadays people win with 2 easily whored gollies or a pack of arty bots.

what if we could have less incentive to megaspam t1 units. how can we solve this. often people will have 4 or 5 t1 labs spamming to accompany their gollies or penetrators or whatnot.

t2 units should be more vulnerable to t1 units. today t2 units have way too much health u cant kill a fatboy with any t1 unit (almost)

sorry about punctuation im too tired to write proper english

[Gota]

Or...You can try playing a different map...sounds like a better idea no?
Change the mod for a single map or change to a different map...hmm..

[albator]

This is an issue due to ultra specialization of most of players you play with in DSD map, not a balanced issue at all. Actually, balance has nerf air T2 strategies.

DSD is designed to be played 5v5 MAXIUMUM. 8v8 (and now 9v9) means far less metal per players which means tecking and making 3 advanced mexes in 6 or 7 minutes will provide you much more metal that if you had expand alone along all the south part. That mean you are not rewarded for the ground you take in DSD, or not enough in comparsion with tecking simple advanced mexes.

A point I agree with you though, Goli has far too much HP. It has been switched from 7k to 9k for one year or two now, and lot of people (including me) have asked for reverse that (also panther and croc E-cost).

To conclude, you can only complain that by only playing DSD you made your experience become worthless since now you only need a few tenth of hours to know how to play DSD since everybody that plays it knows what to do, how to win a game and swear at their teamates what to do to do so.

If you want to see less T3 and play DSD, just play on host with limited amount of players.


edit: agree with Metal maker efficient decreasing with increase in E converted into metal.

[bobbelurman]

This is an issue due to ultra specialization of most of players you play with in DSD map, not a balanced issue at all. Actually, balance has nerf air T2 strategies.

DSD is designed to be played 5v5 MAXIUMUM. 8v8 (and now 9v9) means far less metal per players which means tecking and making 3 advanced mexes in 6 or 7 minutes will provide you much more metal that if you had expand alone along all the south part. That mean you are not rewarded for the ground you take in DSD, or not enough in comparsion with tecking simple advanced mexes.

A point I agree with you though, Goli has far too much HP. It has been switched from 7k to 9k for one year or two now, and lot of people (including me) have asked for reverse that (also panther and croc E-cost).

To conclude, you can only complain that by only playing DSD you made your experience become worthless since now you only need a few tenth of hours to know how to play DSD since everybody that plays it knows what to do, how to win a game and swear at their teamates what to do to do so.

If you want to see less T3 and play DSD, just play on host with limited amount of players.

Your point is well taken Albator. Alas, is this something that happened after we opened for 8v8 games? DSD as you say is made for 5v5 max. Nowadays its usually not played with anything less than 7v7. I agree that taking ground needs to be more important. If taking ground gave u more metal than mohowhoring then everybody would push harder/faster instead of teching. What can we do about this? Also this issue; the fewer players, the more res for each player, however there is one dreaded consequence: if ONE nub fails, whole game fails

[Pxtl]

T3 units are popular in BA/DSD because they're the *simplest* (not necessarily the most effective) way to assault porc uphill.

That's all. Fighting up hill into a chokepoint means you need a terrifically high-density assault kbot (one armed with vlaunches is gravy), or an all-terrain bot. That's T3, and that's what a porcy DSD endgame is.

T3 is good at breaking an enemy that is located on high ground with narrow accesses. That's pretty much *what it's for*. For 90% of other games, you'll never see a T3 unit.

As for metal makers, I'd rather just see a nerf on T2 makers in general, but that's just me.

edit: perhaps bring back Caydr's original Goli design? Low health (~4000 iirc) but a beefy regen meaning it can survive indefinitely in a low-intensity long-term battle but will fall with a concentrated attack?

[Gota]

Simple way of attending to that problem Bobbel.
Reduce the wreckage of the commander so that in porcier games people cant tech as fast.
Now you can play dsd with less tech while not hurting the more open games.
also maybe its time to rethink if team com ends was a good game style to move to from just com ends.

[Wombat]

Simple way of attending to that problem Bobbel.
Reduce the wreckage of the commander so that in porcier games people cant tech as fast.
Now you can play dsd with less tech while not hurting the more open games.

or just bring com ends back !

[Gota]

Simple way of attending to that problem Bobbel.
Reduce the wreckage of the commander so that in porcier games people cant tech as fast.
Now you can play dsd with less tech while not hurting the more open games.

or just bring com ends back !

hehe i edited my post as you were writing yours..

[Pxtl]

Honestly, I've always felt that BA needs a CA-style no-dgun-no-megawreck-no-big-boom comm option for large teamgames. Leave the full BA comm for 1v1s and FFAs where it fits better.

But people have too much fun with commwreck teching and commdrops and commnapping and all that stuff, so it'll never happen.

Either way, no matter how much you hate some aspect of the game, remember that a lot of people must like it because they keep doing it, and will vocally defend that aspect.

Your problem may not be everybody else's problem.

[albator]

T3 units are popular in BA/DSD because they're the *simplest* (not necessarily the most effective) way to assault porc uphill.

That's all. Fighting up hill into a chokepoint means you need a terrifically high-density assault kbot (one armed with vlaunches is gravy), or an all-terrain bot. That's T3, and that's what a porcy DSD endgame is.

T3 is good at breaking an enemy that is located on high ground with narrow accesses. That's pretty much *what it's for*. For 90% of other games, you'll never see a T3 unit.

As for metal makers, I'd rather just see a nerf on T2 makers in general, but that's just me.

edit: perhaps bring back Caydr's original Goli design? Low health (~4000 iirc) but a beefy regen meaning it can survive indefinitely in a low-intensity long-term battle but will fall with a concentrated attack?

Assume you have one fusion, some t2 mexes, advanced solar, nano, and on t2 lab. Will you :

1) Start spamming T2 unit whose first will take 2 minutes to go other side of the map and starting killing porc with diplomate-like unit ?
2) reclaim T2 lab and normal fusion to make advanced fusion in less than 2 minutes and then spam T2air/berta/nuke/T3+T1spam ?


I think everyone has the answer: BA is an eco game and DSDlike-map stategy are fully centered on increasing exponentially your eco. But it is was it is. The only solution I see (appart making a lot of rebalancing in T2 and T3) is to have a decreasing efficiency in metal to energy convertion ratio according the the amount of energy converted. But because it is such a big change it will probabily never happen anyway.

[Johannes]

Host this bobbel

[HectorMeyer]

The problems are really in the early game with the quick comwreck teching and t2 lab reclaiming.

The first problem has an obvious solution (modoption pls) and would even be OTA canon, the second problem probably isn't even that bad nevertheless there are existing solutions already like expensive t2 cons or tech centers.

Once the late game is reached and the game is still undecided, eco whoring doesn't even play that much of an important role anymore, a team with 15 adv fusions still has a good chance to win against a team with 25 adv fusions, its really more about things like buildpower and strategy, like for example being able to get 6 fully nanoed airlabs going or lol i maek vulcan on edge of hill.

edit: i always liked the no com no control option

[Aether_0001]

Play better maps then. Or actually be good and win via multi-player push before enemy starts its teching kill-spree.

[nightcold]

personaly i think that we should stop makeing Ba soooo god damn cost effective with the mm economy

moho should cost 4 times as much

t3 should be removed

make fusion and advfusion far less cost effective

mm should cost much more e



gameplay should be much less about tecing and econ and more about pushing and in game tactics


(and we should also replace com with a giant tower and make the scale smaller for giant epic batteles.....of w8 that is nota, start playing nota nubs!!!!!!!!)


btw, BA has been like this since as long as i remeber

[Aether_0001]

I think it's a change in general mindset, not a balance flaw in BA. New players are introduced to pro players who gain a lot of area and tech a little to troll and gain eco for pwnage moves. If you're a noob, and you see people tech and do noobstrats and end up with lots of t3 mechs, wouldn't you want to do the same? There are no visible consequences, since it was the pros who were doing it. So in the end you see less tactical maneuvering and more "who-can-eco-the-fastest."

imho noobs should only be allowed to 1v1 until 2 stripe (also, maybe change ranking system so people don't smurf - one major reason is because it's not as fun getting from gold to vet - too much of a time difference, people usually rather want to get multiple grey stars, etc)

Actually, it would be cool if there was some more severe consequence for techers - I agree with implementing no com no control, or self d com = no control. [I know no com no control is an option, we just gotta use it more. Final solution?]