fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

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Hackfresser
Posts: 86
Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 20:26

fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Hackfresser »

you probably all know how weasels and fleas counter fatboys and goliaths.
do you see this as an issue?
i thought that maybe the tactical ai needs some sort of update, so these units will only fire at stuff thats actually worth killing? microing them with hold fire and such is somewhat awkward.
also, t2 vecs dont really have a good counter for fast-moving units. levelers are good, but i dont like having to keep that t1 lab around. maybe add a t2 tank with a riot gun, or a triple llt or something like that? raiders just dont fill that role properly.
i also think that core t2 vecs need some sort of buff. arm shouldnt have better t1 kbots, better t1 vecs AND better t2 vecs.

opinions?
BaNa
Posts: 1562
Joined: 09 Sep 2007, 21:05

Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by BaNa »

Hackfresser wrote:you probably all know how weasels and fleas counter fatboys and goliaths.
do you see this as an issue?
No. These units allready deal less selfd than they should. Using fast weak units to take them down is totally valid, he who sends out a golly unsupported deserves it.
Hackfresser wrote: i also think that core t2 vecs need some sort of buff. arm shouldnt have better t1 kbots, better t1 vecs AND better t2 vecs.
opinions?
? core t2 has the golly and the banisher. nuff said.
Hackfresser
Posts: 86
Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 20:26

Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Hackfresser »

selfd? what?

fast units taking down gollies is ok if they actually shoot at them. but weasels making gollies kill each other... i dont like it.

also, have you ever compared banisher stats to penetrator? pen has more then 3 times the dps. banisher can fully turn its turret and is a bit faster. still penetrator is better imo.
raiders dont cut it vs bulldogs.
and now gollies... i have yet to see a player use gollies and manage to cope with flea spam.
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Pxtl
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Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Pxtl »

Use Crocs?
Hackfresser
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Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 20:26

Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Hackfresser »

i have to admit i never used crocs in land battles, but looking at the stats i feel that they are inferior to raiders in this role. their projectiles are even slower, the aoe is the same
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Johannes
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Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Johannes »

Hackfresser wrote:you probably all know how weasels and fleas counter fatboys and goliaths.
do you see this as an issue?
no

It's not like gollies aren't powerful enough already...
i also think that core t2 vecs need some sort of buff. arm shouldnt have better t1 kbots, better t1 vecs AND better t2 vecs.
What's the point of unsubstantiated claims like this?

If you have a problem like this, where you have a problem but not much experience with the situation, why not just ask for help instead of balance change?
Hackfresser
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Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 20:26

Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Hackfresser »

nah, not gonna have another discusion with johannes :wink: :roll:
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KaiserJ
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Joined: 08 Sep 2008, 22:59

Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by KaiserJ »

just make your own scouts

sending a fatty / golly by itself is quite foolish, as is any single unit spam
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Sucky_Lord
Posts: 531
Joined: 22 Aug 2008, 16:29

Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Sucky_Lord »

T1 arm vehicles is better than core? Are you shitting me? :P Leveler beats anything anyday
Hackfresser
Posts: 86
Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 20:26

Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Hackfresser »

KaiserJ wrote:just make your own scouts
hm yeah... i just would like to have a useful counter in the T2 lab. but afterall, T1 labs dont cost so much
Sucky_Lord wrote:T1 arm vehicles is better than core? Are you shitting me? :P Leveler beats anything anyday
levelers are too slow. they die to properly microed stumpies
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Sucky_Lord
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Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Sucky_Lord »

Hackfresser wrote:
Sucky_Lord wrote:T1 arm vehicles is better than core? Are you shitting me? :P Leveler beats anything anyday
levelers are too slow. they die to properly microed stumpies
Dont make me laugh! :P
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Niobium
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Joined: 07 Dec 2008, 02:35

Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Niobium »

Scout spam is OP (Seriously)

The only counter is more scout spam, and then you quickly get into a situation where the battle is stupid and not fun, where neither sides units can properly target anything, and micro is out of the question with pathing fucked by so many scouts moving around and into units. With ground attacks out of the question the only options left are eco spam or air spam, joy.

If you are losing to anything above T1 then yes, scout spam is a great ""tactical"" move as it pretty much instantly puts a stop to their advance, but the game is then left in such a shitty state that it would've been better to just lose and play another.

One solution would be to have a toggle on all t2/t3 units, that determines whether they target scouts/lowly units or not. Afaik it would be reasonably easy to do a good job of this through lua.
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Sucky_Lord
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Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Sucky_Lord »

Niobium wrote:Scout spam is OP (Seriously)

The only counter is more scout spam, and then you quickly get into a situation where the battle is stupid and not fun
urdoinitrong. You realise 1 LLT will stop any hope of a moderate scout spam? And if the enemy has up to 8 labs spamming constant fleas, 3 LLTs will do the job?

I think youre spending too much time building adv fusions and nukes. If youre entirely dependant on massive tech in your gameplay, try building 1 razorback, this ends a scout spam.
Hackfresser
Posts: 86
Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 20:26

Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Hackfresser »

razorbacks do very well vs scouts, and i assume that karganeths arent much worse. microing 1 of these into that ak river is reasonable imo. just core T2 vec has no unit that can fill this role well.
arm t2 vec doesnt rely on aoe so there isnt much of a problem here
Hackfresser
Posts: 86
Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 20:26

Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Hackfresser »

Sucky_Lord wrote:You realise 1 LLT will stop any hope of a moderate scout spam? And if the enemy has up to 8 labs spamming constant fleas, 3 LLTs will do the job?
llts are too slow and too fragile. (sometimes it feels as if they are not moving at all.)
levelers are much better. now, in a T2 environment, levelers are pretty fragile as well...
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aegis
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Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by aegis »

Sucky_Lord wrote:if the enemy has up to 8 labs spamming constant fleas, 3 LLTs will do the job?
so wrong, 8 labs of fleas (assuming nano assist) will take on anything - krog, doomsday, warrior spam, even dragon's teeth (they can push each other through it) :P

something like 20 fleas alone can take out an llt
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Johannes
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Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Johannes »

Niobium wrote:Scout spam is OP (Seriously)

The only counter is more scout spam
gl stopping flashes, stumpies, panthers, crocs etc with similar sized production. Scouts die to those aoe units too, if you use decent targeting

I can't think of a single game with good players where scouts spam really (outside of first 5 mins) decided the game... Post a replay of you or someone owning with it?
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Niobium
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Joined: 07 Dec 2008, 02:35

Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Niobium »

Johannes wrote:
Niobium wrote:Scout spam is OP (Seriously)

The only counter is more scout spam
gl stopping flashes, stumpies, panthers, crocs etc with similar sized production. Scouts die to those aoe units too, if you use decent targeting

I can't think of a single game with good players where scouts spam really (outside of first 5 mins) decided the game... Post a replay of you or someone owning with it?
The person using scouts doesn't try and beat your flash/stumpy/crocs/whatever using the scouts, they use other units, namely T2.

Here's a pretty good tactic: spam scouts + mix in a few long range units (i.e. penetrators or snipers). Enemies close range units get annihilated at range by penes/snipers, while enemies long-range units waste shots on your scouts. Therefore enemies only remaining option for halting the long-range unit rape is to spam scouts themselves.. If they don't (Bad/OK players won't), they lose. If they do, the games stalemated/ruined.
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Carpenter
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Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Carpenter »

The game will never get stalemated tbh, there's always something that will decide the game. :)
It is not as simple as you're trying to make it look. If there's a 2v2 situation for example where all these 4 players involved are doing the scout/long-range unit spam, it will come to the nukes, 3rd unit type or air and stuff that will decide the game but it will never be a stalemate, that's very obvious (at least I've never seen a stalemate game).
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Niobium
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Re: fatboys, goliaths, aoe and friendly fire

Post by Niobium »

Carpenter wrote:The game will never get stalemated tbh, there's always something that will decide the game. :)
It is not as simple as you're trying to make it look. If there's a 2v2 situation for example where all these 4 players involved are doing the scout/long-range unit spam, it will come to the nukes, 3rd unit type or air and stuff that will decide the game but it will never be a stalemate, that's very obvious (at least I've never seen a stalemate game).
True, someone always does win in the end, sometimes through the entire enemy team giving up on trying to win and just disconnecting to do something else (I've seen this a few times).

It's an absolute snorefest ecoing and stacking fighters till you have more, or watching vanguards inch their way across the map, terrible part of the game and all to common in large games. So I think it'd be nice to try and fix some of the things that cause lame ecogames i.e. scout spam
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