Eternal Annihilation (v1.04) - Page 5

Eternal Annihilation (v1.04)

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albator
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Joined: 14 Jan 2009, 14:20

Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by albator »

Jazcash wrote: Your whole post is a bit of a waste because ofc you don't rush blade spam in 1v1. No wonder you got pwned doing so. I never make blades in 1v1, simply because at that point, I have enough metal to reclaim all my labs and rush a liche or bombers.
alba wrote:But first, try to kill a decent player at CCR , u core, the other arm, you will see how blades are the only way to prevent you to be raped by stumpy since they owned so much.
Shows how much you know about 1v1.
I actually know about 1vs1. For exemple, last time (and first time) I played 8D, I won 2 time over 5. Even if I barely play 1vs1, I am still better than your Fx guy like drone who never won against him at ccr (sorry about that but I want to make myself clear)

I would assume that YOU actually dont know how to play 1vs1. Play 8D in ccr, you core and him arm, and win at stumpy stage (game not decided aftr 10 minutes), using the blades to see how op they are. blades are the only way to counter unit speed of arm unit on vehicul map. I can actually uplaod a game againt him where the best choice for second factory was air to make blades. However, it is far not enough to win, cause a tiny bit of AA is enough to counter them. I eventually won (it was really close, bases was partially detroyed ) becasue of the emp ability of blades preventing me to be totally annihilated with stumpy spam. With the new efficiency of blades I would have lost, even if I would have make not a single mistakes.

You cannot denny that blades are really expensive
Oh but I can.
Then you make a fool of yourself... blades are the most expensive unit that have a so low hp they et kill in a single shot buy the weekest AA of the game.

Just sparse you AA, and you kill kill them easily if you arenot lazy enough to make some AA
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Pxtl
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Pxtl »

Am I the only one who spams 1 samtruck per 5 tanks? I mean, you lose a little firepower, but that little bit of range and spotting can do miracles.
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Regret
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Regret »

albator wrote:Alba ingame, may AA,he will mass spam blades. It remind me a little bit of how pople use to react about regret behaviour. Anyway, after a while I just stopped to make air factory
No, don't give in! Keep doing it until you can taste their delicious tears.

Also welcome to the club. :regret:
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Jazcash
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Jazcash »

albator wrote: Then you make a fool of yourself... blades are the most expensive unit that have a so low hp they et kill in a single shot buy the weekest AA of the game.
When you measure the cost of a unit, HP and other such factors are irrelevant. Fleas are just the same but people don't bitch about how expensive they are for their HP because of obvious reasons.
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momfreeek
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by momfreeek »

albator wrote:long anecdote about how blades saved my ass against 8D
This proves neither your skill at 1v1 nor blade balance given the uncertainty of both.
Jazcash wrote:When you measure the cost of a unit, HP and other such factors are irrelevant.
Not irrelevant (that can certainly be misread) but one stat (such as HP) is not a complete measure of unit value, no.
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Johannes
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Johannes »

momfreeek wrote:
albator wrote:long anecdote about how blades saved my ass against 8D
This proves neither your skill at 1v1 nor blade balance given the uncertainty of both.
Tell me then, what would prove balance or skill, if games between best players are too uncertain?
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pintle
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by pintle »

Jazcash wrote:When you measure the cost of a unit, HP and other such factors are irrelevant.
WTF are you smoking jaz? Seriously...
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momfreeek
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by momfreeek »

Johannes wrote:
momfreeek wrote:
albator wrote:long anecdote about how blades saved my ass against 8D
This proves neither your skill at 1v1 nor blade balance given the uncertainty of both.
Tell me then, what would prove balance or skill, if games between best players are too uncertain?
I meant uncertainty in a mathematical sense (two unknowns cannot prove each other). Albator presented his skill as uncertain (props for the victories ofc) and obviously perfect blade balance cannot be assumed as a proposition if that is also supposed to be the conclusion.
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albator
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by albator »

momfreeek wrote:
Johannes wrote:
momfreeek wrote: Tell me then, what would prove balance or skill, if games between best players are too uncertain?
I meant uncertainty in a mathematical sense (two unknowns cannot prove each other). Albator presented his skill as uncertain (props for the victories ofc) and obviously perfect blade balance cannot be assumed as a proposition if that is also supposed to be the conclusion.
According quantum mechanics, if you go really fast toward a wall, there is a non nul (in a mathematical way) probabily that you go through (This is not a joke btw)

Now I dont think you dont care of this affirmation, neither am I.
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momfreeek
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by momfreeek »

ok, here's another conclusion drawn from your anecdote: 'blades are OP' (how else could albator beat the mighty 8D?)

assume one thing and a conclusion will pop out
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KaiserJ
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by KaiserJ »

bladewing: you get to use them effectively once per game. if even.

after this, your opponent will be aware that you're using air, and unless they're a complete tool, will build counters.

an arm player, in the same vein, has one opportunity to use banshees.
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Jazcash
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Jazcash »

pintle wrote:
Jazcash wrote:When you measure the cost of a unit, HP and other such factors are irrelevant.
WTF are you smoking jaz? Seriously...
?

I'm talking about pure cost. Not efficiency, coolness or whatever else you thought I meant by cost.

The cost of a unit is measured in Metal and Energy. This is because you need x energy and y metal in order to build the unit. You cannot build a unit using hitpoints. It would either just not work or be a very flimsy unit.

See diagram below for proof:

Image
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Gota
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Gota »

I think its time to use BD's balance discussion paradigm.
All rights reserved to BrainDamage.

prefix any post that discusses mod balance with amount of times that you played the mod online 1v1 in the past 2 months, exact value isn't necessary, a simple order of magnitude will suffice.

"and suddendly everything in the thread becomes much less complicated and everything self explanatory"
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Niobium
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Niobium »

Cost-for-cost blades overpower AA. This should not be the case. The only way to feasibly counter blades becomes 100% AA, and even then you might still get stunned.

I think the reason there is so much arguing about how blades are/aren't OP is that their usefulness is highly tied to the micro and cleverness of the person using them.

A bad player will send in blades, get the majority killed in the first AA volley, and conclude that blades are crap because you lose so much metal when they die 1 hit. => Blades are fine/UP.

A good player on the other hand sends in enough blades such that after 2 volleys, enough remain to stun the AA units, which has been prioritized, and then the remaining army can be stunned safely. Lose a lot of metal in blades? Sure. Enemy loses entire force dealing no damage to your combat units? Yes. => Blades are OP.

Problems:
- Too cheap (Cost-for-cost overpowers AA)
- Too fast (Get blades = enemy can no longer raid. Anywhere.)
- Too damaging (Too punishing to someone who loses/forgets AA)
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Pxtl
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Pxtl »

If you perfectly micro them, you'll win... but you won't be able to perfectly micro them, unless the player has only one or two AA units. It's hard to individually dispatch your blades to stun each enemy unit. I assume a Bladewing Micro widget could be made to perfectly task them to spread out and keep the maximum number of targets stunned.... but currently, the SAM units win.

Also, BA Samtrucks are UP as SAM units because they wear too many hats. If Samtrucks lost some of their hats (right now they're artillery, spotting, anti-scout, fire-support and AA) they could be buffed in their AA role. This is why, imho, samtrucks should lose one or more of those hats. Nixa solved this by removing their SAM power. Fatty nerfed their sight range here, hindering their work as arty and removing their function as spotter, and correspondingly buffed their AA power.
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Nixa
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Nixa »

Nixa solved this by removing their SAM power
I think you mean surface to ground. Anyhow, yes, samson is like panther of T1, jack of all trades except harder to stop.
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Hobo Joe
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Hobo Joe »

Niobium wrote:Cost-for-cost blades overpower AA. This should not be the case. The only way to feasibly counter blades becomes 100% AA, and even then you might still get stunned.

I think the reason there is so much arguing about how blades are/aren't OP is that their usefulness is highly tied to the micro and cleverness of the person using them.

A bad player will send in blades, get the majority killed in the first AA volley, and conclude that blades are crap because you lose so much metal when they die 1 hit. => Blades are fine/UP.

A good player on the other hand sends in enough blades such that after 2 volleys, enough remain to stun the AA units, which has been prioritized, and then the remaining army can be stunned safely. Lose a lot of metal in blades? Sure. Enemy loses entire force dealing no damage to your combat units? Yes. => Blades are OP.

Problems:
- Too cheap (Cost-for-cost overpowers AA)
- Too fast (Get blades = enemy can no longer raid. Anywhere.)
- Too damaging (Too punishing to someone who loses/forgets AA)
I haven't done the math like it looks like you have, but it's not as straightforward as you make it sound.

Say you have 5 samsons and 15 stumpies, and the enemy has 20 blades. Will he be able to stop your attack?

Not a fucking chance. If he goes after your AA, the stumpies go through without contest, if he goes after the stumpies, the blades get raped by AA.

Measuring blades and AA cost-for-cost doesn't make sense, because blades aren't trying to stop AA, they're trying to stop the units protected by AA. If the enemy has 5 samsons and you have the cost equivalent in blades, it doesn't matter, because they won't be using just samsons, they'll be using normal ground units as well, and even if they ARE building just samsons and you still have the cost equivalent in blades, you can stun them all and do... nothing, because all your resources will be spent on blades. Unless of course you have a significantly larger eco in which case it's all moot because you should be winning in that situation anyway.

And like Kaiser said it's a one-time shot. You build blades once and you'll never get another chance to use them effectively. Honestly sounds like jaz is just butthurt over a few bad 8v8DSD games, personally I've never seen blades abused in a reasonably sized game with reasonably skilled players, and definitely not any situation where they've seemed OP. They're one of the easiest units to counter.
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Johannes
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Johannes »

GL trying to stop equal cost of aa with blades. 2 blades have 0 chance of stunning a crasher, pulverizer or samson (which costs more than 2 bladews but ofc has other use too), don't even mention fighters. And that's just for metal cost, in practice you need much more buildpower to make blades than aa, though blades get to the battle faster. With larger numbers it won't start favoring blades either, they become increasingly harder to micro against aa first when they are spread out and numerous, even if aa might overshoot the blade first entering into range. Blades are not overtly strong, but they are often useful, people probably complain because they force the opponent to adjust.

Though adding a 2nd gunship to core might not be a good idea, then it's maybe too easy to just use blades and them to kill more distant targets without having to divert ground units. But depends.


But most people in this thread probably shouldn't be discussing balance, at least not make so bold statements - nobody knows this game that well... If you say something like rockos/hammers filling the same role, you should be making a thread asking how to use them. Not complain about balance just cause you don't know the game. Samson spam too for example is very much counterable by other things than more samsons, same for t2 bombers, if you'd just care to find out. But often it needs teamplay in a team game to do it. :/
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Niobium
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by Niobium »

Johannes wrote:GL trying to stop equal cost of aa with blades. 2 blades have 0 chance of stunning a crasher, pulverizer or samson
Scale those numbers up, and suddenly it's a piece of cake.

You put one sacrificial blade infront of your blade line before sending it in, it absorbs the entire first volley. If you only have 2-3 blades, this sacrificial one is a big deal. When you have 15 blades, it's nothing.
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pintle
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Re: Yet Another BA Fork - Eternal Annihilation (v1.02)

Post by pintle »

Niobium wrote:
Johannes wrote:GL trying to stop equal cost of aa with blades. 2 blades have 0 chance of stunning a crasher, pulverizer or samson
Scale those numbers up, and suddenly it's a piece of cake.

You put one sacrificial blade infront of your blade line before sending it in, it absorbs the entire first volley. If you only have 2-3 blades, this sacrificial one is a big deal. When you have 15 blades, it's nothing.
Blades stack, wont para entire AA force before samson reload cycle is up= pwnt by aoe. Post replays of blades beating any decent force of AA plix, because I am extremely dubious of these claims that fly in the face of both my experience, and the statements of the few BA players who's skill I actually respect.
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