A formal Reply to "The Decline of BA" - And a "Suggestion"

[RedBird]

Hi everyone! I originally posted this as a reply to the "Renny's thread about the decline of BA players" thread, but I beleive it deserves its own thread after all.

This thread is about what I see that is wrong with the BA community, and the one most important thing that i feel would go a long way to righting the problems that currently exist.

Anyways, here's the post from the other thread, reproduced more or less verbatim:

I only started playing BA about 6 months ago, so I think I missed the "glory days" that everyone keeps talking about. Still, I have a few observations on my own personal experiences with Spring and BA in particular.

1. This game is not nub-friendly. It reminds me of "Netstorm: Islands at War" - maintained and played by a very small community, who have exceptionally little tolerance for people who "don't get it". It's a product of group think, in my opinion. The result is that new players (even if they love the game itself) are often turned-off and stop playing because of the attitude of the regular players. By attitude I mean things like:

a) "Don't play right away, spec a few games first"

Now, this makes perfect sense to those of us who have played 8vs8 on DSD, as one nub in the wrong spot can ruin a game. But it's NOT a very welcoming or encouraging thing to hear when you are playing a game for the first time. Most people, upon hearing this and getting kicked/com-bombed in their first game will just say "@#^& it" and find another game to play. That is a fact, and it's NOT a good thing for the community if you are trying to rejuvenate it!

b) "The little dots" and text beacons

These are some of the coolest features of the game, but for a new player they can be VERY intimidating. It goes hand in hand with point a)". It can make you feel very self-conscious when you suddenly see 5 other players "looking over your shoulder" and making disparaging comments about your build-order or playing skills in your first game. It's tantamount to a public humiliation; and there are only a few personality types that will be willing to "tough through it" and learn the ropes unless they already happen to have a friend on the inside who can help them out.

To tell you the truth, if it hadn't been for the friendly encouragement I received from a few different players (Meatme, Hobojoe, and others) in my first few games when EVERYONE ELSE was giving me shit, I would have stopped playing too.

2. 8vs8 DSD plays WAY differently than other maps. OMG, it took me months to figure this out. Just yesterday, I found myself trying to tech DSD-style on KappaBasin. Muppet almost shat his lungs out (I got him killed by not helping!) and gave me so much crap! But, the very next game, after a FEW POLITE POINTERS, I performed more than adequately, and our team won the game. Now this example highlights two important things:

a) Most nubs' first experience with BA is with bots, and then 8vs8 DSD. So, even after they "learn the ropes" on DSD, they're really still quite novice and inexperienced (like me), and find other maps very intimidating. It can be hard to know what to do. And people don't have the time or patience to "watch" EVERY map before they play on it!

b) With a LITTLE PATIENT ENCOURAGEMENT, people CAN and WILL bridge the gap, and be willing to play other maps and with smaller teams. But people who are good need to be willing to COACH and ASSIST novice players. THIS is how you build a community, NOT by ridiculing and embarrassing people for screwing up or teching at the wrong time when, quite possibly, this is the first time they've played a particular map, and they really have no idea how it should be played.

I understand how hard this is, but it is of the utmost importance. I was a faithful supporter of Netstorm and its community for 10 years. Near the end, when I finally stopped playing, it was down to two-dozen or so dedicated players, all of whom were disturbingly strong experts at the game. New people who showed up were either ridiculed and chased out of the community because they couldn't keep up with the learning curve, or else they (if they showed any promise) were instantly adopted by an elitist "clan" that trained them to be partisan, and unfriendly to outsiders and newcomers.

These are my observations.

Now, here are some of my conclusions:

1. I agree with the OP, 8vs8 DSD is BAD for the community, and the mod. It encourages group think, makes it hard for new people to learn the ropes, and discourages people from paving their own trails. More numerous, smaller games, would VASTLY benefit this community.

But, it's not something easy to do. Group think and clan tendencies mean that people will naturally "glom" together in big games where responsibility is spread more thinly. This is why people prefer big games - they're not as individually responsible for the outcome, so they experience less shame when their team loses!

But what should this tell us? Why are people feeling ashamed when they lose? It should tell us that there is too strong of an adversarial attitude in the game! Oh man, and it's really bad in BA, worse even than in Netstorm.

No one ever says "gg" after the game, or hardly ever. This might seem like an empty courtesy, but it's IMPORTANT! It makes people feel GOOD about the game they played, and want to play again. Instead, people don't say "gg" because "It wasn't a good game, and (insert excuse here)". Either it wasn't balanced, or it was a "fail game" or always there is a reason why people can't just be courteous to one another once the game is over. This leaves people feeling vexed and unhappy after a game has finished. That's not good for the community.

2. PSET team-stacking, and clan-stacking. This is, in my opinion the single biggest problem with BA after the predominance of 8vs8 DSD (though in fact the two problems are intrinsically linked).

Many of the frustrations and discourtesy i detailed in my above conclusion are also partly the result of this absurdity. PSET should not be allowed, it simply shouldn't, or else it should be severely restricted, or team balancing should override it. I don't understand all the technical issues behind this, so maybe there is a reason why I'm wrong, but I see this as a big problem.

The result of this pset nonsense is that you get one team of 8, all on mumble, most of them in the same clan, playing against a team of 8 other people who are not in communication with each other, and are not used to playing with each other. Either the stacked team wins, or else they ruin the game "for the lulz" with com-bombing or co-op strats or some other nonsense.

This is INFINITELY WORSE than a noob "ruining" the game by simply being bad. 1000x worse, in every way, because these people should KNOW BETTER. And yet hardly ever do people get called out for this, while noobs are almost GUARANTEED to be hassled for "ruining" a game by playing before they are ready. How absurd is this?

You are trying to GROW AND PRESERVE your community. Why are you letting this crap happen??? It turns people off, and ruins the game for half the people playing!

Clans might argue that they have a right to "play together", but why? WHY? If they're really any good, they should be playing AGAINST EACH OTHER to test their mettle and their strategies. Always playing on the same team is the sure sign of a cowardly organization that have little trust in one another. What are they afraid of? Ridicule from their fellow members when they lose? Losing their status as "The best"? Sound like an insecure and unstable organization to me...

3. And this is my most important suggestion:

A new clan needs to be created. NEEDS to exist in order for this community to Survive. A new Clan; dedicated to finding, embracing, encouraging, and coaching new players and new members of the Spring community (Or BA community or whatever the scope possible) so that they feel as welcome and accepted as possible. Rules for membership in this clan would be simple, and strictly enforced:

a) 100% dedication to gentlemanly conduct and sportsmanship. No excuses, no whining, no bossing, no rudeness. Only good sportsmanship, courtesy, and encouragement to those who need it most.

b) Members would have a responsibility to tutor new players, and give them constructive help and advice, coaching them through games, and teaching them the ropes. Not just helping if they ask, but actively OFFERING these services. Ie, you see a guy struggling in one of his first games: Take him under your wing. No negativity, just patience and support.

c) Members of this clan would become, almost inevitably, the most respected members of this community, and for that reason, only the most responsible and dedicated players would be invited into this clan. Skill would be a minor requirement, experience would be more important. But MOST important would be sportsmanship, friendliness, dedication, and maturity.

I can't do it, though I wish I could. I'm not a strong enough player, I haven't been around long enough, and I don't have the right attitude. I, too, can get caught up in negativity. I'm not mature enough to be a member of this Movement. But I know some of you are! I've played with you in game! You gave me help when I needed it, and I've seen you give others help when they needed it.

Look inside yourselves, and I think you'll be able to tell if you have the Right Stuff. This Clan needs to become a reality, or the Spring community and BA will eventually die, just as I've seen so many other community-supported efforts whither away due to elitism and factional squabbling.

That's it. That's all I have to say. I want to see two kinds of replies to this thread:

1. People stepping up and saying they're ready to take on the challenge.

and;

2. People encouraging on those who they know are ready to do so.

But other comments are, of course, welcome.

Thank you for your time.

[Nixa]

Simple answer, if you want someone to play well in all levels of the game, expose them to all aspects of the game... not just 8v8 DSD. It's not DSD that's ending BA, it's 8v8 on 4v4 maps, encourage porc/tech/simcity etc. These are aspects of the game which one needs to know, but not apply to every game played. I say bring back max of 5v5 like the old days

But then again... everyone seems to like 8v8 BA DSD... so I'm guess that's just the way BA has headed. Sure talent to play the game has dropped 150% but that's just the way it is.

[Hobo Joe]

Long post, and mostly a regurgitation of what is said around here a lot, but I agree. Firstly, almost everyone who has played Spring more than a couple months, or people who play a lot of other rts despise 8v8 dsd. But it's important to make a distinction here. 8v8, in and of itself, is not necessairly a terrible thing. It will of course allow more room for a lot of noob mistakes and bad learning habits, but the problem comes about in maps like DSD, which are made for 3v3-5v5, where you have a meatshield situation. There are two rows of players, one in front, one in back. The ones in the back feel like they're safe, and can go 15 minutes without giving any kind of assistance. This breeds players who can't respond to pressure, don't know how to counter anything, and don't know how to build a good eco beyond the tech buildorder they got from an experienced player who played 8v8dsd when they were bored.

DSD in itself is not a problem either. In fact, it's a very exceptional map, which is part of the reason why it's so popular right now. When played with 3v3-5v5, it has VERY dynamic gameplay that can really take unexpected directions.

What we really need is simply more players who don't join 8v8dsd and play smaller games, at least the majority of the time. I'll often sit in a server with a small max player count and just wait for people, or ask in main if someone wants a game, and if a newbie comes along, I'll try to show them the ropes and get them started without just being an ass (team games) or completely raping them (1v1). It's a small effort that makes a very big difference.

Autohosts compound all these problems, but in the end it's up to the players to make it change, it's not that hard to get a 1v1 game going, usually only takes a couple minutes to find a player if you're looking, and the games usually don't last long, certainly not near as long as a dsd game.

Some of the most satisfying games for me are 3v3/4v4 games with a mix of newer players and moderately experienced players. The new players get a chance to learn things without being completely alone and clueless, but they learn PROPERLY, without having meatshield scenarios, while the more experienced players will be battling with each other in the middle of that. It's always fun to play with a new guy who's fascinated by things in Spring/BA, reminds me of when I first started. Like "woooooww, that's so cool!".


A little bit goes a long way. Don't overwhelm and rage at the newbies, give them a couple tips if they're responsive and let them do their thing, and encourage non-dsd play.


might post more later but this is all my tired brain can come up with now. we really just need 1 or 2 autohosts for 8v8, then everything else 5v5 and less.

[[RRU]RockmoddeR]

Now I'm not an overly-experienced player myself either, but I play a diverse mod and map range. This seems to be why I can't get exceptionally good at any one mod. I play XTA, BA AND NOTA all fairly well, enough to keep my team alive on my part most of the time. However I suck at teching/porcing, which may be a good thing after all. Part of the problem is that nobody ever plays other mods, or they dismiss them as too different. If you really want to get well-rounded and good at spring, browse springfiles frequently for new maps, play all the different mods, and DON'T FLAME. EVER. Negative comments only ruin your team, they fix nothing. Any of you who have seen me play can readily admit that I'm nothing exceptional, rather, I tend to be on the worse side. However, I have a gold star. This proves why I really play spring after all. I enjoy it. It's fun. If it wasn't fun I would've stopped long ago because of my win/loss ratio. The biggest problem isn't flaming and lack of player diversity, it's the fact that too many players treat it like a job or a task that must be done, rather than the excellent game that it is. Take my opinions with a grain of salt, but if anything can be added to this discussion, DO NOT concentrate on only one mod and maptype/gametype, and DO treat it like the fun, engaging RTS GAME it is.

[Nixa]

I think autohosts should have to be registered and moderated, three reasons

1) clean up lobby
2) stop 1 map only hosts
3) more noob friendly

[Hobo Joe]

E: lol ^^

I think autohosts should have to be registered and moderated, three reasons

1) clean up lobby
2) stop 1 map only hosts
3) more noob friendly

Agreed 100%

[Nixa]

And will this thread be listened to by anyone... hell no

[RedBird]

wow... i get "lorem ipsum" as a reply?


oh well, i tried...

[Hobo Joe]

And will this thread be listened to by anyone... hell no

I think the autohost registry idea has some merit, dunno if it will happen but it's worth suggesting to those in control.

[Hobo Joe]

Hey, I just wanted to say WOW thats a wall of text. But as for my 2 cents, lorem ipsum

Ok this is just too fuckin' good


http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23852


Amazing

[Nixa]

HAHAHAHAHA facebook like this

[Wombat]

Hey, I just wanted to say WOW thats a wall of text. But as for my 2 cents, lorem ipsum

Ok this is just too fuckin' good


http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23852


Amazing

fact that u dont understand what he/she wrote doesnt mean he/she is a troll. we are just too noob :<

[HeavyLancer]

RedBird: Welcome, please don't mind the trolls. I like your idea of having a 'Gentleman's Clan' and I wish you the best of luck with it. Judging by some of the responses here you may have to look for members in other places though

[SirArtturi]

[...]

Thanks for your sentimental statement. It was long, but It had some good points, also some good laughs, for example this:

b) "The little dots" and text beacons

These are some of the coolest features of the game, but for a new player they can be VERY intimidating. It goes hand in hand with point a)". It can make you feel very self-conscious when you suddenly see 5 other players "looking over your shoulder" and making disparaging comments about your build-order or playing skills in your first game. It's tantamount to a public humiliation; and there are only a few personality types that will be willing to "tough through it" and learn the ropes unless they already happen to have a friend on the inside who can help them out.

So true. I admit that this "elitist" community can be sometimes very hostile to noobs. Counting me also. Can't really deny being asshole to noobs sometimes. But on the other hand, I'm sometimes very respectful, guiding and friendly aswell. It's difficult to be polite when you have wasted hours of your life to some freaking 8v8 dsd because some noob ruined game of others by being just ignorant and fool.

No one ever says "gg" after the game, or hardly ever. This might seem like an empty courtesy, but it's IMPORTANT! It makes people feel GOOD about the game they played, and want to play again. Instead, people don't say "gg" because "It wasn't a good game, and (insert excuse here)". Either it wasn't balanced, or it was a "fail game" or always there is a reason why people can't just be courteous to one another once the game is over. This leaves people feeling vexed and unhappy after a game has finished. That's not good for the community.

I know that gg is supposed to be an empty statement/courtesy, but that's why Im using it only when it really means a good game. Otherwise Im just quiet or if its really bad game then I bring it up. The game is "gg" when both sides played well or game lead to some interesting situations. So, It's not about winning or being better, but everyone doing their best and having fun. I can't see 8v8 dsd being fun game if its full of noobs sitting with their assess in back and after 30 minutes they are finally able to do one and only assault, which is launching the nuke. WOW so fantastic! So cool!

Clans might argue that they have a right to "play together", but why? WHY? If they're really any good, they should be playing AGAINST EACH OTHER to test their mettle and their strategies. Always playing on the same team is the sure sign of a cowardly organization that have little trust in one another. What are they afraid of? Ridicule from their fellow members when they lose? Losing their status as "The best"? Sound like an insecure and unstable organization to me...

3. And this is my most important suggestion:

A new clan needs to be created. NEEDS to exist in order for this community to Survive. A new Clan; dedicated to finding, embracing, encouraging, and coaching new players and new members of the Spring community (Or BA community or whatever the scope possible) so that they feel as welcome and accepted as possible. Rules for membership in this clan would be simple, and strictly enforced:

a) 100% dedication to gentlemanly conduct and sportsmanship. No excuses, no whining, no bossing, no rudeness. Only good sportsmanship, courtesy, and encouragement to those who need it most.

b) Members would have a responsibility to tutor new players, and give them constructive help and advice, coaching them through games, and teaching them the ropes. Not just helping if they ask, but actively OFFERING these services. Ie, you see a guy struggling in one of his first games: Take him under your wing. No negativity, just patience and support.

I dont mean to brag with this, but [PinK] really did all this: We had nonparenthesis tags, so that clan balance wouldnt sort us together. We had Noob-welcoming project/clan which mentored noobs to become good players, and so on and so on. I think guys just gave up when it appeared that it didn't have greater significance. It didnt make any difference.

Noobs come and go, the ones who really love the game stays despite being trolled and embarassed.

However, IIRC, when I was a noob, which wasnt actually very long time ago (maybe about 4-5 years ago) the athmosphere were much more friendly and noob tolerable. I remember playing altored divide and fucking many games up by just being noob. Despite that I didnt get much shit but rather guidance and encouraging. I can be wrong also. Maybe I just want to remember the good times...

I agree, autohosts are one of the biggest reason to all this. I've been against them from the very beginning. They are one reason I retired from making maps also. I just found it ridiculous and frustrating to wait days for people to come test my latest contribution (People went to 8v8 DSD) What a waste of time. The situation, although, came better when people started to know my maps and begin to support my efforts.

So, I woulnd't mind If lobby/battlerooms would get moderated. Sometimes harsh authoritarian dicipline can improve the situation that is breaking loose.

Also, lol at petah's double standards...

[REVENGE]

Simple answer, if you want someone to play well in all levels of the game, expose them to all aspects of the game... not just 8v8 DSD. It's not DSD that's ending BA, it's 8v8 on 4v4 maps, encourage porc/tech/simcity etc. These are aspects of the game which one needs to know, but not apply to every game played. I say bring back max of 5v5 like the old days

But then again... everyone seems to like 8v8 BA DSD... so I'm guess that's just the way BA has headed. Sure talent to play the game has dropped 150% but that's just the way it is.

neeeeexa

[Petah]

wow... i get "lorem ipsum" as a reply?


oh well, i tried...

Sorry for the troll but I couldn't bring myself to read that novel.

But feel free to down vote the comment with our new post voting system. 10 down votes and it'll be hidden.

[pintle]

How about, instead of sitting in your ivory tower making grand plans:

Stop playing BA DSD

Host other games (no excuses, SL has relay host)

Be friendly to less experienced players joining your game, ruthlessly kick trolls/dickheads, you are host.

[luckywaldo7]

I only started playing BA about 6 months ago, so I think I missed the "glory days" that everyone keeps talking about.

People were talking about missing the "glory days" when I first started playing 2 and a half years ago.

[zwzsg]

Noobs come and go, the ones who really love the game stays despite being trolled and embarassed.

More like, noobs come and are rudely chased away, only the ones immune to trolling and embarassment stay enough to learn to love the game.

[Nixa]

Glory days - before 8v8 was possible imho (5v5 max), that's when I had the most interesting and exciting games (ahh moonQ20x vs LCC stack I miss you )

Relay hosts - I dunno about you, but myself and many others get kicked for flooding when we use them...

And a solution to your problem might be limiting new players to 5v5 games until 30 hours. Sounds cruel, but 1v1-5v5 style is easy to transfered to 8v8... but 8v8 DSD style isn't backwards compatible with 5v5 or less