Saktoth wrote:If you want to learn CA, PM me in lobby. I am the guy with the big gold star next to his name who isnt an autohost. You've come a bit too late for the true era of 1v1 BA glory, when we had some of the better TA players who had been playing for a decade, now its mostly 8v8 DSD...
Dunno if there's less good players playing actively nowadays, maybe, but nevertheless it shouldn't be any easier to be the best than before, back then nobody had as much BA experience as now.
BA is propably the mod which got the most gameplay options since of a strong metal maker economy while some maps have their related strategies mapped out.
Hmm it shows you haven't played much BA
Metalmakers aren't that strong if the players are good, and I don't consider even CCR to be very mapped out strategically, I learn new things about it all the time.
JohannesH wrote:Dunno if there's less good players playing actively nowadays, maybe, but nevertheless it shouldn't be any easier to be the best than before, back then nobody had as much BA experience as now.
I suppose you never played Daywalker or Andy. They were in a whole other league.
We probably know a whole lot more about BA DSD than we did before, but you just dont get the kind of regular, high level 1v1's that you used to.
(A note for the slow people: This topic was moved to the BA forum, thus the discussion of all the other mods in this topic).
Lol what do you know of the level of todays BA play? I have played Day and won if that matters... Though he did play well considering how rusty he mustve been.
Of course nobody can know for sure, comparing them at their prime and newer players at their best, who would win, but it's stupid to say that others couldn't have caught up to that level since then. Especially if you don't play yourself.
And we don't know shit about DSD, random teams tell nothing of how it should be played optimally
JohannesH wrote:Lol what do you know of the level of todays BA play? I have played Day and won if that matters... Though he did play well considering how rusty he mustve been.
Of course nobody can know for sure, comparing them at their prime and newer players at their best, who would win, but it's stupid to say that others couldn't have caught up to that level since then. Especially if you don't play yourself.
And we don't know shit about DSD, random teams tell nothing of how it should be played optimally
The fact that current players are unable to fill any 1v1 game quota is a testimony to how shit they are.
In the past there were many players who actively initiated 1v1 games, constantly.
In many cases if such a player was online you'd most likely find him playing 1v1 games.
There were more players of higher zeal and desire to play.
today there is nothing,nada.
this is probably the worst situation in the history of the spring project.
IMO,if nothing drastic happens the community will keep dwindling until it dies.
The community is divided into half motivated people, working on projects nobody plays and a project with an actual player base that moves nowhere, is acreditted to 1 person and looks like its from 2002.
JohannesH wrote:Lol what do you know of the level of todays BA play? I have played Day and won if that matters... Though he did play well considering how rusty he mustve been.
Of course nobody can know for sure, comparing them at their prime and newer players at their best, who would win, but it's stupid to say that others couldn't have caught up to that level since then. Especially if you don't play yourself.
And we don't know shit about DSD, random teams tell nothing of how it should be played optimally
The fact that current players are unable to fill any 1v1 game quota is a testimony to how shit they are.
In the past there were many players who actively initiated 1v1 games, constantly.
In many cases if such a player was online you'd most likely find him playing 1v1 games.
There were more players of higher zeal and desire to play.
today there is nothing,nada.
this is probably the worst situation in the history of the spring project.
IMO,if nothing drastic happens the community will keep dwindling until it dies.
The community is divided into half motivated people, working on projects nobody plays and a project with an actual player base that moves nowhere, is acreditted to 1 person and looks like its from 2002.
has nothing to do with autohosts.
We need to go back to AA days where the main mod was "collectively" developed.
The whole "BA is finished,dont touch it" crap has failed miserably.
BA needs to use all the new models,new effects and all the improvements it can get...
Still, best way to help get more 1v1 games played is to play some yourself, seriously. Most players play 8v8dsd because it's easy, but if they take the time to play a 1v1 game they'll almost always enjoy it more, it's far more challenging and rewarding, and it always feels like you're learning something. I try to play 1v1 games whenever I'm not tired or not feeling like I'd play well, and it's usually pretty easy to get one going.
I do agree though, it's played a lot less than it used to be and I do think autohosts are part of the problem. Back in the day it would have been hard to get such a large game going on any map, and nobody with the net or hosting ability to host such a game would repeatedly host it on the same map, autohosts are failed democracy and lack of playerlimit/map choices.
Instead of their being 3 choices of player hosted games on various maps, people can join an autohost, see they don't have the map, and then just "!map deltasiegedry" rather than downloading the map, because with autohosts they know they can avoid it easily.
We need less autohosts that just set max players to 16 by default, and autohosts that simply remove dsd from the map list. More 1v1-4v4 servers.
But of course I'm just blowing air cause I know no autohost owner is going to chop their playercounts in half to make such changes simply because it would be better for spring. Warlord has made it obvious that autohost owners think nothing of what would be better for spring, simply what would let players do more 8v8badsd 24/7.
Gota wrote:has nothing to do with autohosts.
We need to go back to AA days where the main mod was "collectively" developed.
The whole "BA is finished,dont touch it" crap has failed miserably.
BA needs to use all the new models,new effects and all the improvements it can get...
I really prefer a stable game than some collectively changing crap, if the game will be different all the time it really kills a big part of the game... Whats the incentive to figure out small subtle things then?
BA almost changes too much already, or rather they are the wrong changes for me XD
And its quite obvious most people dont care much about graphics. If they did they wouldnt play BA, but they wouldnt play other *A games for looks either...
Autohosts is a big reason, without them it would be harder, not easier, to get a big game going vs a small one.
Also it's not too hard to get a 1v1 game vs good opponent, IF you play BA.
What has this thread become though... Hi Remmy :D
How to learn the game, play a lot, talk to ppl, watch replays, join #pink channel in lobby if you like, it's the most skilled clan in Spring http://replays.adune.nl/ is good site, but with new engine version just come out theres nothing to see atm... Though you could install Spring 0.81.2, tons of good replays available with that.
Dont listen to Gota's nitwit prattling, he is the local troll around here.
There are still plenty of 1v1 players in a range of games who will give him a challenge, and Spring will outlive any commercial game because it doesnt have a retail shelf life, and even graphically, it keeps being pushed (we just need the artists, like Cremuss, to make it deserve it).
Saktoth wrote:Dont listen to Gota's nitwit prattling, he is the local troll around here.
There are still plenty of 1v1 players in a range of games who will give him a challenge, and Spring will outlive any commercial game because it doesnt have a retail shelf life, and even graphically, it keeps being pushed (we just need the artists, like Cremuss, to make it deserve it).
Right..is this gonna be another BaW CA thing?
The only game with a decent player base is BA.
It doesnt matter that the Spring engine gets new capabilities if the game with the actual player base refuses to use them.
Get a player base for CA than youll refute my point but how long has it been under development now?
Do you play a lot of CA 1v1 saktoth?
Cause there are almost no 1v1 BA games going unless its some newbies playing 2 hour games where they tech to krog.
Of course the spring project wont die if it has developers but who cares, unless it has a player base?
You can count the number of decent players online with two hands,sometimes with one.
Saktoth wrote:Dont listen to Gota's nitwit prattling, he is the local troll around here.
There are still plenty of 1v1 players in a range of games who will give him a challenge
I call bullshit.
Very few good XTA players still around.
No Swiw games at all.
Very few good S44 1v1 games when I've tried to get them.
0 KP games
About 3 people even know how to play Gundam beyond LOLNOOB level, one of those I rate as challenging, and he aint played in almost a year afaik.
Comptetitive EE players? lulul
I could go on and on.
There is a substantial difference between a competent, and a skilled player, and there are few enough competent ones outside of a small clique of (generally) BA exclusive players who mostly only play the same extremely limited map rotation.
Don't listen to Saktoth's self indulgent twaddle, he is the resident egomaniac around here.
JohannesH wrote:Lol what do you know of the level of todays BA play? I have played Day and won if that matters... Though he did play well considering how rusty he mustve been.
Of course nobody can know for sure, comparing them at their prime and newer players at their best, who would win, but it's stupid to say that others couldn't have caught up to that level since then. Especially if you don't play yourself.
And we don't know shit about DSD, random teams tell nothing of how it should be played optimally
The fact that current players are unable to fill any 1v1 game quota is a testimony to how shit they are.
In the past there were many players who actively initiated 1v1 games, constantly.
In many cases if such a player was online you'd most likely find him playing 1v1 games.
There were more players of higher zeal and desire to play.
today there is nothing,nada.
this is probably the worst situation in the history of the spring project.
IMO,if nothing drastic happens the community will keep dwindling until it dies.
The community is divided into half motivated people, working on projects nobody plays and a project with an actual player base that moves nowhere, is acreditted to 1 person and looks like its from 2002.
BA communauty has a lot of descent players.
The difference of opinion between johan and Basic is simple:
When I play small game or 1vs1 (yes it happens sometimes) , I see johan most of the time, but Basic is not there.... (I dont know if he is playing something else)
If you wonder where the descent players are, just go in piro/pink channel and look where are the player.
I have to admit that becasue of the vacation, there are less poeple acive, but I know some players that are quite descent at BA and spend their time playing small game rather than trying to say that one mod is bad.
pintle wrote:There is a substantial difference between a competent, and a skilled player, and there are few enough competent ones outside of a small clique of (generally) BA exclusive players who mostly only play the same extremely limited map rotation.
Hi everyone! This is my first post on this forum (Maybe I'll do an introductory post later) But I have some comments for this thread:
I only started playing BA about 6 months ago, so I think I missed the "glory days" that everyone keeps talking about. Still, I have a few observations on my own personal experiences with Spring and BA in particular.
1. This game is not nub-friendly. It reminds me of "Netstorm: Islands at War" - maintained and played by a very small community, who have exceptionally little tolerance for people who "don't get it". It's a product of group think, in my opinion. The result is that new players (even if they love the game itself) are often turned-off and stop playing because of the attitude of the regular players. By attitude I mean things like:
a) "Don't play right away, spec a few games first"
Now, this makes perfect sense to those of us who have played 8vs8 on DSD, as one nub in the wrong spot can ruin a game. But it's NOT a very welcoming or encouraging thing to hear when you are playing a game for the first time. Most people, upon hearing this and getting kicked/com-bombed in their first game will just say "@#^& it" and find another game to play. That is a fact, and it's NOT a good thing for the community if you are trying to rejuvenate it!
b) "The little dots" and text beacons
These are some of the coolest features of the game, but for a new player they can be VERY intimidating. It goes hand in hand with point a)". It can make you feel very self-conscious when you suddenly see 5 other players "looking over your shoulder" and making disparaging comments about your build-order or playing skills in your first game. It's tantamount to a public humiliation; and there are only a few personality types that will be willing to "tough through it" and learn the ropes unless they already happen to have a friend on the inside who can help them out.
To tell you the truth, if it hadn't been for the friendly encouragement I received from a few different players (Meatme, Hobojoe, and others) in my first few games when EVERYONE ELSE was giving me shit, I would have stopped playing too.
2. 8vs8 DSD plays WAY differently than other maps. OMG, it took me months to figure this out. Just yesterday, I found myself trying to tech DSD-style on KappaBasin. Muppet almost shat his lungs out (I got him killed by not helping!) and gave me so much crap! But, the very next game, after a FEW POLITE POINTERS, I performed more than adequately, and our team won the game. Now this example highlights two important things:
a) Most nubs' first experience with BA is with bots, and then 8vs8 DSD. So, even after they "learn the ropes" on DSD, they're really still quite novice and inexperienced (like me), and find other maps very intimidating. It can be hard to know what to do. And people don't have the time or patience to "watch" EVERY map before they play on it!
b) With a LITTLE PATIENT ENCOURAGEMENT, people CAN and WILL bridge the gap, and be willing to play other maps and with smaller teams. But people who are good need to be willing to COACH and ASSIST novice players. THIS is how you build a community, NOT by ridiculing and embarrassing people for screwing up or teching at the wrong time when, quite possibly, this is the first time they've played a particular map, and they really have no idea how it should be played.
I understand how hard this is, but it is of the utmost importance. I was a faithful supporter of Netstorm and its community for 10 years. Near the end, when I finally stopped playing, it was down to two-dozen or so dedicated players, all of whom were disturbingly strong experts at the game. New people who showed up were either ridiculed and chased out of the community because they couldn't keep up with the learning curve, or else they (if they showed any promise) were instantly adopted by an elitist "clan" that trained them to be partisan, and unfriendly to outsiders and newcomers.
These are my observations.
Now, here are some of my conclusions:
1. I agree with the OP, 8vs8 DSD is BAD for the community, and the mod. It encourages group think, makes it hard for new people to learn the ropes, and discourages people from paving their own trails. More numerous, smaller games, would VASTLY benefit this community.
But, it's not something easy to do. Group think and clan tendencies mean that people will naturally "glom" together in big games where responsibility is spread more thinly. This is why people prefer big games - they're not as individually responsible for the outcome, so they experience less shame when their team loses!
But what should this tell us? Why are people feeling ashamed when they lose? It should tell us that there is too strong of an adversarial attitude in the game! Oh man, and it's really bad in BA, worse even than in Netstorm.
No one ever says "gg" after the game, or hardly ever. This might seem like an empty courtesy, but it's IMPORTANT! It makes people feel GOOD about the game they played, and want to play again. Instead, people don't say "gg" because "It wasn't a good game, and (insert excuse here)". Either it wasn't balanced, or it was a "fail game" or always there is a reason why people can't just be courteous to one another once the game is over. This leaves people feeling vexed and unhappy after a game has finished. That's not good for the community.
2. PSET team-stacking, and clan-stacking. This is, in my opinion the single biggest problem with BA after the predominance of 8vs8 DSD (though in fact the two problems are intrinsically linked).
Many of the frustrations and discourtesy i detailed in my above conclusion are also partly the result of this absurdity. PSET should not be allowed, it simply shouldn't, or else it should be severely restricted, or team balancing should override it. I don't understand all the technical issues behind this, so maybe there is a reason why I'm wrong, but I see this as a big problem.
The result of this pset nonsense is that you get one team of 8, all on mumble, most of them in the same clan, playing against a team of 8 other people who are not in communication with each other, and are not used to playing with each other. Either the stacked team wins, or else they ruin the game "for the lulz" with com-bombing or co-op strats or some other nonsense.
This is INFINITELY WORSE than a noob "ruining" the game by simply being bad. 1000x worse, in every way, because these people should KNOW BETTER. And yet hardly ever do people get called out for this, while noobs are almost GUARANTEED to be hassled for "ruining" a game by playing before they are ready. How absurd is this?
You are trying to GROW AND PRESERVE your community. Why are you letting this crap happen??? It turns people off, and ruins the game for half the people playing!
Clans might argue that they have a right to "play together", but why? WHY? If they're really any good, they should be playing AGAINST EACH OTHER to test their mettle and their strategies. Always playing on the same team is the sure sign of a cowardly organization that have little trust in one another. What are they afraid of? Ridicule from their fellow members when they lose? Losing their status as "The best"? Sound like an insecure and unstable organization to me...
3. And this is my most important suggestion:
A new clan needs to be created. NEEDS to exist in order for this community to Survive. A new Clan; dedicated to finding, embracing, encouraging, and coaching new players and new members of the Spring community (Or BA community or whatever the scope possible) so that they feel as welcome and accepted as possible. Rules for membership in this clan would be simple, and strictly enforced:
a) 100% dedication to gentlemanly conduct and sportsmanship. No excuses, no whining, no bossing, no rudeness. Only good sportsmanship, courtesy, and encouragement to those who need it most.
b) Members would have a responsibility to tutor new players, and give them constructive help and advice, coaching them through games, and teaching them the ropes. Not just helping if they ask, but actively OFFERING these services. Ie, you see a guy struggling in one of his first games: Take him under your wing. No negativity, just patience and support.
c) Members of this clan would become, almost inevitably, the most respected members of this community, and for that reason, only the most responsible and dedicated players would be invited into this clan. Skill would be a minor requirement, experience would be more important. But MOST important would be sportsmanship, friendliness, dedication, and maturity.
I can't do it, though I wish I could. I'm not a strong enough player, I haven't been around long enough, and I don't have the right attitude. I, too, can get caught up in negativity. I'm not mature enough to be a member of this Movement. But I know some of you are! I've played with you in game! You gave me help when I needed it, and I've seen you give others help when they needed it.
Look inside yourselves, and I think you'll be able to tell if you have the Right Stuff. This Clan needs to become a reality, or the Spring community and BA will eventually die, just as I've seen so many other community-supported efforts whither away due to elitism and factional squabbling.
That's it. That's all I have to say.
EDIT*** Come to think of this, I'm going to re-post this as its own thread.
albator wrote:
BA communauty has a lot of descent players.
The difference of opinion between johan and Basic is simple:
When I play small game or 1vs1 (yes it happens sometimes) , I see johan most of the time, but Basic is not there.... (I dont know if he is playing something else)
If you wonder where the descent players are, just go in piro/pink channel and look where are the player.
Decent or Descent? Theres significant difference. I see myself descent player, lol.
Also, I agree Basically :) with Gota, he isnt trolling, he is telling the facts.
