Full coop games trolling

Full coop games trolling

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[oxnull]Lupus
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Joined: 12 May 2009, 14:52

Full coop games trolling

Post by [oxnull]Lupus » 01 Sep 2009, 02:19

I started host for full coop games. Spectated some of them today.
Despite opinions told in this topic it was quite interesting.
It's a new gameplay type. But this topic is not about how cool is it.
It's vulnerable to troll attacks. We had one guy issuing self-d command most games. And just dgunned team mates stuff. He avoided ip ban several times. I was unable to do something about it. It's impossible to track griefing because of current coop implementation.
Possible solutions so far:
  • Some kind of anti self-d widget
  • Orders spam like in DPS widget(text appearing over the unit with some info about who and what was doing)
  • Defining some colormap(with widget displaying it?) of players in coop and making units glow with color of a cooped player. May be it should fade with time so that you will see unmicroed stuff.
Looking forward to hear some constructive suggestions about this situation.
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Regret
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Re: Full coop games trolling(BA)

Post by Regret » 01 Sep 2009, 02:24

[oxnull]Lupus wrote:I started host for full coop games. Spectated some of them today.
Despite opinions told in this topic it was quite interesting.
It's a new gameplay type. But this topic is not about how cool is it.
It's vulnerable to troll attacks. We had one guy issuing self-d command most games. And just dgunned team mates stuff. He avoided ip ban several times. I was unable to do something about it. It's impossible to track griefing because of current coop implementation.
Possible solutions so far:
  • Some kind of anti self-d widget
  • Orders spam like in DPS widget(text appearing over the unit with some info about who and what was doing)
  • Defining some colormap(with widget displaying it?) of players in coop and making units glow with color of a cooped player. May be it should fade with time so that you will see unmicroed stuff.
Looking forward to hear some constructive suggestions about this situation.
Coop is for playing with people you trust and not for random pub games with newbies and retards.

Also BA topics go into BA subforum.
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[oxnull]Lupus
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Re: Full coop games trolling(BA)

Post by [oxnull]Lupus » 01 Sep 2009, 02:30

Regret wrote:Coop is for playing with people you trust and not for random pub games with newbies and retards.
Didn't i ask for constructive suggestions? "Just don't do like that" is no way constructive. You haven't tried it. You could nap 5+ coms per game.
Regret wrote:Also BA topics go into BA subforum.
Sory. Someone move it there please.
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Kixu
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Re: Full coop games trolling(BA)

Post by Kixu » 01 Sep 2009, 02:32

Yeah its good fun, so different from normal games.

As lupus says, a widget where you could see who are giving orders would be great so you can see who specifically is countermanding orders.

Also tritons idea would be awesome as an option for this
[PinK]triton wrote:Great job, but did u think about lock selected stuff? i mean that when u select units others teammates cant use it.
coop mod is really interesting. I think its a really nice futur way of playing RTS, but it needs improvements.

A nice thing would be that players should have different functions with rank maybe... best rank would be able to control anything, lower rank would only listen orders ^^...(rank wont be only way to make teams ofc)

I really can imagine a team of 8 players with 1 boss 2 captains and 6 soldats.

-Boss say strategy and dont needs to control units, he focus on how metal and energy is spend on units/eco (would be nice to have a widget to set ratio about buildpower priority between spam units/defences and make eco)

-2 captains makes build orders and cons and choose to which soldats they give units to attack with (we would need a very fast widget to share units to players).

-6 soldats micro units only, each captain have 3 soldats and share them units, because soldats have no units at start.
Also soldat would be usefull as fast as u can have 5 scouts in a game. :mrgreen:

It was example of wat i imagine about a new way to play rts and i think it can be done on balanced annihilation with few changes only.

I didnt think about this only to lead some nubs ;) ill be ok to be a soldat too and only focus on attack/raids.

Sorry for my english and how i typed this i hope ull understand what i thought.

P.S : i am not code programmer so it just an idea, i cant make this alone :wink:

A main advantage of this is it lets new players focus on micro'ing units, something they normally couldn't do because they were wondering wtf they were supposed to be doing in their base "do I need more adv solars???".

Anyone that has ability to code this could you comment on any hard limits in spring or how much time it would take?
Thanks.
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Regret
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Re: Full coop games trolling(BA)

Post by Regret » 01 Sep 2009, 02:39

[oxnull]Lupus wrote:Didn't i ask for constructive suggestions? "Just don't do like that" is no way constructive. You haven't tried it. You could nap 5+ coms per game.
I pointed out why you are having the problems you have, how is that not constructive? You clearly weren't aware of it.
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[oxnull]Lupus
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Re: Full coop games trolling(BA)

Post by [oxnull]Lupus » 01 Sep 2009, 02:45

Triton's idea is awesome. It can be implemented by different factions i believe. But i don't know general way to force one commander over a team. Need some lobby support like reading some restrictions file from mod archive which declares max number of factions per team. Coz all noobs(trolls) would like to be a top level commander.
P.S.: As for me i'd love to be a soldier :) What can be moar interesting then raping enemy?
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JohannesH
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Re: Full coop games trolling(BA)

Post by JohannesH » 01 Sep 2009, 03:00

Tritons way is too slow I think... All soldiers need access to all military, otherwise micro is just not as fast.

Better to have free access and proper coordination in other ways, than just restriction to enforce player roles, unless youre playing with newbs who dont listen.
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[oxnull]Lupus
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Re: Full coop games trolling(BA)

Post by [oxnull]Lupus » 01 Sep 2009, 03:18

JohannesH wrote:Tritons way is too slow I think... All soldiers need access to all military, otherwise micro is just not as fast.
Not slow, but too verbose imo. I'll divide to ecoers and microers. One guys are trying to balance eco and don't bother on what's going up. Other try to protect ones that are building eco and rape enemy. And may be there must be some uber commander that keeps eye on all this shit for it not to go rong.
And roles priviledges should not mix. If military part wants a nuke it should ask to find resources for it, not just get nanos from building first fusion to nuke launcher.
JohannesH wrote:Better to have free access and proper coordination in other ways, than just restriction to enforce player roles, unless youre playing with newbs who dont listen.
Free access + anonymity of this access leads to awesome trolling. First step is to make people know what other people are doing in some nonspaming manner....
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JohannesH
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Re: Full coop games trolling(BA)

Post by JohannesH » 01 Sep 2009, 04:54

[oxnull]Lupus wrote:
JohannesH wrote:Tritons way is too slow I think... All soldiers need access to all military, otherwise micro is just not as fast.
Not slow, but too verbose imo. I'll divide to ecoers and microers. One guys are trying to balance eco and don't bother on what's going up. Other try to protect ones that are building eco and rape enemy. And may be there must be some uber commander that keeps eye on all this shit for it not to go rong.
And roles priviledges should not mix. If military part wants a nuke it should ask to find resources for it, not just get nanos from building first fusion to nuke launcher.
Isnt this all no brainer, when you work with a half decent team... If youve agreed to micro tanks you dont queue nukes, even if you could. Also, 1 ecoer not ecoers, same guy is also the uber commander if there is one.

Of course trolling and stupidity are big problems but when anonymity is gone you could just kick trolls and idiots -> ok to give full access for people for maximum efficiency.
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REVENGE
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Re: Full coop games trolling

Post by REVENGE » 01 Sep 2009, 11:02

Played a 13v13 today, there was only 1 troll the entire time. Same player who kept coming back via renaming his account. Problematic individuals are really few and far between. Single'em out, IP ban'em.
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Wisse
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Re: Full coop games trolling

Post by Wisse » 01 Sep 2009, 13:09

I like Triton's idea, but I would make it simpler.

If we had 3 ranks, we could just disallow lower rank to cancel higher rank's orders. So if boss made a move/buildorder, it couldn't be changed by anyone but boss until it's carried out.

Same goes for 2nd rank. They would be able to take over 3rd rank, but still couldn't interfere with boss.

3rd rank could use all units as long as they're idle, but I would disable self destruct command and maybe implement inverse limited dgun, which would allow them to dgun when they're outside base, thus avoiding any start point massacre. But still enabling boss and 2nd ranked players to take over base defending.


We should have 1 boss. 1/4 of players could be 2nd rank and everyone else should be 3rd. This would still rely on players "culture", but there could be safe list for players that can be trusted. You would have random selection or even vote among 2nd ranks to select boss.
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[oxnull]Lupus
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Re: Full coop games trolling

Post by [oxnull]Lupus » 01 Sep 2009, 14:33

REVENGE wrote:Played a 13v13 today, there was only 1 troll the entire time. Same player who kept coming back via renaming his account. Problematic individuals are really few and far between. Single'em out, IP ban'em.
Our troll was reconecting with new ip. As i told earlier, he was ipbanned 3 times. And ruined over dozen games.
2JohannesH: 1 ecoer will have hard time thinking about eco stuff on whole map and as far as i understand you also want him to build berthas, nukes and other stationary and harmful stuff. He needs to be damn skilled to do it proper way.
About kicking trolls and idiots -> there are players that are nor trolls, nor idiots. They are just learning. We had one that build second T1 lab. Team reclaimed it. He build it again. Again we reclaimed it with a marker 'don't build it again please'. Probably marker was erased. Some time later he put a marker 'Why my plant keeps disappearing?'. :)
2Wisse: turning of self-d is not an option. What about self-ding pyro when you want some extra damage? Or self-ding a trans with com coz you want to combomb? Probably selfd needs to be paused and alarmed to all players so that they will be able to vote or something.
But problem of self-d trolling does not exists in role play system. Restrict com selfd to chief commander. Let unit microers selfd only units. At least troll will not be able to blow everything at once.
Impossibility of canceling higher rank orders will stop idiotic reorderings when everyone want to save the situation(like com being napped).
Inverse limited dgun is a good option too. Only one guy must defend base with dgun, and he must be good at dgunning.
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Wisse
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Re: Full coop games trolling

Post by Wisse » 01 Sep 2009, 14:40

I would restrict self-D only to 3rd rank players (I thought that was clear in my original post). Boss or 2nd rank could take over those pyros that are in good spot for self-d.
Same with combomb. Most of combombs are done without self-d anyway, others could be handled by higher ranks.

This counts as advanced micro. I can't see potential 3rd rank players complaining about it. Even so you could have transports and pyros on 3rd rank self-d safe list if you wanted.
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[oxnull]Lupus
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Re: Full coop games trolling

Post by [oxnull]Lupus » 01 Sep 2009, 14:45

Wisse wrote: This counts as advanced micro. I can't see potential 3rd rank players complaining about it. Even so you could have transports and pyros on 3rd rank self-d safe list if you wanted.
Hm, agreed. When you say ranks - you mean some roles/levels or it has something with lobby ranks?
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Wisse
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Re: Full coop games trolling

Post by Wisse » 01 Sep 2009, 14:50

We could take thing even further.
Boss and 2nd rank could have their mouse marker in different shape or color. Boss could even have the right to promote players to 2nd rank or even 1st if he trusted them enough.

This would rly get hierarchy thing going nicely. Players would see that higher ranked player took over and move to do other stuff, micro other units.

Edit:
I used Triton's rank system and yeah, I mean roles/levels not lobby ranks. Lobby ranks don't tell much about player alone imo.

Boss = 1st rank, then you have 2nd and 3rd below.
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bibim
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Re: Full coop games trolling

Post by bibim » 01 Sep 2009, 15:39

[oxnull]Lupus wrote:Our troll was reconecting with new ip. As i told earlier, he was ipbanned 3 times. And ruined over dozen games.
If he just had a dynamic IP, then you could have banned his IP range (SPADS supports regexp in IP-bans).
If he was using a proxy to connect to lobby (with totally different IP each time), then you could have checked his real IP by doing !status while the game is running (for privileged users, SPADS now shows the in-game IP in !status output when the game is running), or by checking the game.log SPADS file. Then you could have banned his real IP that way.

Also, now that unique accountIds are finally available in lobby protocol, it will soon be possible to use accountId based bans in SPADS. Then, all you will have to do to get rid of griefers is to host rank-limited battles: if the griefer renames to escape a ban, he's still recognized by his accountId and cannot join the battle, and if he creates a new account, he has newbie rank and can't play in the rank-limited battle neither.
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tizbac
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Re: Full coop games trolling

Post by tizbac » 01 Sep 2009, 17:15

Unfortunately not always ip range can be banned , cause some ISPs changes the subnet at each reconnect like mine (my isp gives me 79.0.0.0 or 82.0.0.0 or 87.0.0.0 ) and banning one of these subnets , would ban tons of users, ipv4 is almost running out of ips and ip subnet ban is no longer acceptable. And anyway subnet banning could ban other users than the troll.

A better idea could be GeoIP location ban with whitelist but it's still crap and unreliable.

The server should support also user id ( not account id) but it'll work only for idiots , cause anyone a bit smart will be able to hack it
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bibim
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Re: Full coop games trolling

Post by bibim » 01 Sep 2009, 17:53

tizbac wrote:Unfortunately not always ip range can be banned , cause some ISPs changes the subnet at each reconnect like mine
What's the problem with multiple ranges ? This doesn't prevent you from baning them at all.
tizbac wrote:(my isp gives me 79.0.0.0 or 82.0.0.0 or 87.0.0.0 )
I guess you meant 79.0.0.0/8, 82.0.0.0/8 and 87.0.0.0/8. Do you really think your ISP (Telecom Italia) would give you IPs from a subnet assigned to Tiscali UK Limited (79.64.0.0/12) for example ? Your subnets are wrong, they are much smaller than that...
tizbac wrote:and banning one of these subnets , would ban tons of users
What's wrong with banning Internet users if they don't play Spring anyway ?
tizbac wrote:ipv4 is almost running out of ips and ip subnet ban is no longer acceptable. And anyway subnet banning could ban other users than the troll.
Subnet banning works quite well in other games with a lot more active players than Spring :roll:
Of course you could find a few active Spring users sharing the same range (and even the same IP)... And in these cases, IP-bans aren't really appropriate, but in all other cases it's efficient.

Anyway I never said range banning of dynamic IPs would be the perfect solution. And that's partly why I added accountIds in TASServer...
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