Balanced Annihilation V6.92

[1v0ry_k1ng]

when you say bots, you mean storm/rocko.

[Wisse]

again, you misread.

I suspect your not actually reading at all.

counter? I sure didnt say that. infact, I never even suggested kbots should be equal to veh...

see, im doin it wrong because I like situations where you have a choice of lab in a competetive game, rather than two types of game that dont meet up, veh or bots.

...that bullshit about "kbots being hard mode" is another way of saying they are terrible. likewise, saying "they need lots of micro AND MICRO IS FUN YAY"- is kinda an indicator of massive fail since all flash need to be at least as effective in combat is a move order into the enemy stuff.

What I concluded from those parts of your posts is that you want more effective kbots which would be used in similar manner or could even stand up against veh and that you want to chose veh/bot without considering map as primary factor.
Maybe I just misread.


Your second point is about thud/hammers pws/aks with pintle standing by your side now

Wisse would have more credibility if he did a couple of things: Address Ik's actual statements, as opposed to very poor straw man/personal attacks, and also; play mods other than BA to a competent level at 1v1. In this case I am speaking specifically of XTA, SA and CA.

Those 3 mods all have rewarding, meaningful choices, and progression of build, in the t1 bot lab. In all of those mods, veh are predisposed to win on flat ground, yet kbots are not fucked.

There are some extremely simple fixes staring you right in the face: fix pw/ak e cost, and making hammer/thud less lulfail being the two most blatantly obvious.

Even if you buff the shit outta thud/hammer, and make ak/pw cost effective, kbots are still gonna get raped on the flat by janus/leveller + samson/slasher, so its not breaking your oh-so-precious arbitrary superiority of veh, not to mention artillery, amphibs, better cons..

But you are correct, I bow to your gosu skill and superior logic, I will go back to spamming crusaders on CCR XTA 1v1.

I used personal attack in order to try and break Ik's ignorance and to stop "LOL" answers, because we can't have one sided debates. I'm not mad about his points, I'm just frustrated about his attempts to win argument without counter-argument. I'm quite happy to present my case and consider anyone else's as long as they do the same.

Why would I need to know all of the mods pintle? I thought those mods are there to be/because they are different from BA. I have nothing against them, but I play BA because of it's OWN balance which is unique (and not borken imo) and fit's my criteria. I guess you answered yourself with that one (plus you wrote it in the end). Keep playing other mods.

I can't prove my point arguing on internets but I'm quite confident that I can prove it in game. I even think that I can force you to use thuds against me in order to survive (hammers have alternative - warriors). Why I don't do that all the time is just because it's hard and usually I didn't have to work that hard to win. That's all there is to it.


So what I'm saying for past few months is, that bots are actually balanced perfectly, but we all got too noob to make them work.

I just want to prevent you from breaking this balance, couse it's much better than anything we can come up with in next few dozen iterations.

[pintle]

The reason I mentioned the other mods is that they all, to some degree, have kbots balanced much more competitively with vehicles (especially pw/ak vs gator/flash costs) and yet veh still dominate flat ground. It is totally viable to make kbots a distinct choice from veh, with strengths and weaknesses for both choices, rather than make kbots a 2nd class lab.

If you think that effectively limiting a player to 1 viable lab on the majority of maps in the majority of situations (I presume we are thinking of a 1v1 environment) and then argue that it creates a game of superior depth and skill than one that is ostensibly similar but has a much greater set of options available to the player, then fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. I disagree wholeheartedly.

[JohannesH]

But bots are a valid choice on quite a lot of maps, and not just those that are too hilly for veh to move around. If the map is small enough, they beat veh even on a completely flat map.

[MR.D]

Tell that to Levelers and Janus, or tell it to Slasher/Samson spam..

Although Rocko/Storm cost for cost does a pretty decent job taking down Levelers and Janus and low numbers of Gator/Flash, when it comes to stumpy vs Kbot there is no equal.

The only thing that makes Kbots worth using at all are the Necro/Rezzer, without them and Kbots in their current state they would always be a losing decision almost as bad as air starts.

For 200 metal, Stumpy/Raider dominate any kbot or kbots of equal cost.

[YokoZar]

This might seem like an obvious question, but is it really that much of a loss to build a kbot lab, pump out a few necros, and then recycle the kbot lab?

[eyu100]

But bots are a valid choice on quite a lot of maps, and not just those that are too hilly for veh to move around. If the map is small enough, they beat veh even on a completely flat map.

Flop beat a bunch of people (consistently) on darkside using kbots because the necros he used to reclaim the rocks were cheaper than construction vehicles (and for a variety of other reasons). Flop didn't win just because he was good. Building a kbot lab actually gave him a significant advantage.

[JohannesH]

I would add that it's not just because of the rezzers/rocks. For example Geyser plains is completely valid for bots, even when it's ~flat and has no reclaims. Just don't let a veh-using enemy get those massed samsons or stumpies and you'll be fine...

[pintle]

Anyone have replays of kbots owning veh I could see? Preferably not just a superior player out microing a force of veh :)

[hunterw]

Anyone have replays of kbots owning veh I could see? Preferably not just a superior player out microing a force of veh :)

not for the new version of spring i'm sure

[eyu100]

This might seem like an obvious question, but is it really that much of a loss to build a kbot lab, pump out a few necros, and then recycle the kbot lab?

On small maps, this would take too much time, so if your opponent started kbots you would probably lose.

[flop]

rockos own vehicals at lots of stages in the game, they really do beat flash tanks when they have comm support and micro. on a small map you can use kbots with your commander to force the vehical enemy into defensive and draw a line to the enemy base with your kbot army, usually its very effective. the counter to it as vehical is janus + commander but it can be hard to pull off. it isnt flat maps vehicals are good at, its BIG maps, lots of people dont understand that. bots really do fine on a flat map as long as its 8x8 or smaller. for a map to be a "vehical" map, it needs to be 10x10 or bigger, and flat.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

yeah compush and rockos works well on geyser
but 10x10 flat map, nah, bots dont fare too well on titan duel

the point remains the only strats that exist is storm spam.. pw/ak isnt really useable as a mainline raider because it chokes e/bt whilst hammer is no real use in 1v1 situation unless its brazil

[Llamadeus]

Some people just don't get BA....

[hunterw]

thuds / hammers are a niche unit, im over it

[Anyone]

>lots of words about bots<

...

Can we see some real problems fixed instead?

[tombom]

>lots of words about bots<

...

Can we see some real problems fixed instead?

Like what? T1 balance is a pretty big deal for a TA style mod

[Regret]

Like what? T1 balance is a pretty big deal for a TA style mod

T1 balance is also not broken and doesn't require fixing, that's why he said some "real problems" as opposed to unreal fictional problems imagined by whiny players.

[Beherith]

Like what you say?
Like the core t2 radar kbot having a vec moveclass and vec slopetolerance. kthxbai

[pintle]

Thanks for clarifying Regret. There was me thinking I had legitimate complaints backed up by actual quantifiable data, when in fact I am just whining. Who was I to think a rational discussion would take precedence over muck-slinging and dogma.


... about those replays?