hammer/thud change revert? - Page 2

hammer/thud change revert?

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BaNa
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Joined: 09 Sep 2007, 21:05

Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by BaNa »

flop, while I have no doubts you could beat me 1v1 on a map of my choice, can you honestly say thuds/hammers got used nearly as much as rockos on a map like brazilian?
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flop
Posts: 335
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 05:44

Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by flop »

BaNa wrote:flop, while I have no doubts you could beat me 1v1 on a map of my choice, can you honestly say thuds/hammers got used nearly as much as rockos on a map like brazilian?
you are right lots of games end before hammers and thuds are used, usually on brazillian you start with rockos because of the low metal cost and later in the game when you have tons of metal and can make lots of units you switch to mass hammers or thuds because of the uneffectiveness of large numbers or rockos. a long brazillian game will almost always have hammers or thuds built in large numbers at some point. can you honestly say that liche gets used as much as flash tanks on comet? just because something is not used as often as another unit doesnt mean its bad. hammers and thuds were good units, and are still good units, but better.
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[TS]Lollocide
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Joined: 30 Nov 2007, 18:24

Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by [TS]Lollocide »

I think the new Thuds/etc are op'ed, the previous version ones could have used abit more range, but increasing anything else breaks them.
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TheFatController
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Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by TheFatController »

[TS]Lollocide wrote:I think the new Thuds/etc are op'ed, the previous version ones could have used abit more range, but increasing anything else breaks them.
More range would have been much worse than the reload change, since they already have more hp and more dps than storms.
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flop
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Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by flop »

just revert them, there was no problem before and now there kindof is... :/
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

whats the problem?
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Niobium
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Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by Niobium »

+7% DPS = OMFG IMBA NERF PLS
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[TS]Lollocide
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Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by [TS]Lollocide »

TheFatController wrote:
[TS]Lollocide wrote:I think the new Thuds/etc are op'ed, the previous version ones could have used abit more range, but increasing anything else breaks them.
More range would have been much worse than the reload change, since they already have more hp and more dps than storms.
Prolly true, I don't use storms enough to warrent a comment there, but in any case, thuds really didn't need changing before but they could use a debuff now, probably in range. significantly.
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ginekolog
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 13:49

Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by ginekolog »

lets wait some time to see how good this unit now is. Its not gamebreaking atm, rite? (weassel from AA223 was)
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

why? they are still inferior to stumpys on flat ground, and still outranged by storms; in practical terms all that has changed is a higher proportion of its sprjectiles hit, and its dps is up 7%. for those hard of maths, thats approx a 3.5dps increase- it sure aint that change you are noticing- its the increase in accuracy and increase in projectile numbers (increasing the difficulty in evasion)
you are right lots of games end before hammers and thuds are used, usually on brazillian you start with rockos because of the low metal cost and later in the game when you have tons of metal and can make lots of units you switch to mass hammers or thuds because of the uneffectiveness of large numbers or rockos. a long brazillian game will almost always have hammers or thuds built in large numbers at some point. can you honestly say that liche gets used as much as flash tanks on comet? just because something is not used as often as another unit doesnt mean its bad. hammers and thuds were good units, and are still good units, but better.
but the thud/hammer is one of the THREE combat units avaliable to core kbots, it has to be viable for frontal assault because otherwise all core got are storms for skirmishing and AK for raiding. its a basic t1 assault unit, not some useful in 1/1000 games lolly unit; you really cant draw a comparison to somthing like flash and liche :P
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flop
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 05:44

Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by flop »

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:why? they are still inferior to stumpys on flat ground, and still outranged by storms; in practical terms all that has changed is a higher proportion of its sprjectiles hit, and its dps is up 7%. for those hard of maths, thats approx a 3.5dps increase- it sure aint that change you are noticing- its the increase in accuracy and increase in projectile numbers (increasing the difficulty in evasion)
you are right lots of games end before hammers and thuds are used, usually on brazillian you start with rockos because of the low metal cost and later in the game when you have tons of metal and can make lots of units you switch to mass hammers or thuds because of the uneffectiveness of large numbers or rockos. a long brazillian game will almost always have hammers or thuds built in large numbers at some point. can you honestly say that liche gets used as much as flash tanks on comet? just because something is not used as often as another unit doesnt mean its bad. hammers and thuds were good units, and are still good units, but better.
but the thud/hammer is one of the THREE combat units avaliable to core kbots, it has to be viable for frontal assault because otherwise all core got are storms for skirmishing and AK for raiding. its a basic t1 assault unit, not some useful in 1/1000 games lolly unit; you really cant draw a comparison to somthing like flash and liche :P
i use liche to win most of my comet 1v1s... but thats beside the point, the comparison was meant to be drastic, all i was saying is that even though it doesnt get used in some games doesnt mean its not good, i guess you didnt understand that. hammers seem to be a unit of choice on the flat map geyser plains now
pintle
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Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by pintle »

Does Hammer/Thud beat/make cost vs stumpy/raider?
bashar
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Joined: 03 Dec 2006, 23:06

Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by bashar »

rockoz fail hard vs thuds now, whatever the map.
not sure it's a good point...
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TheFatController
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by TheFatController »

bashar wrote:rockoz fail hard vs thuds now, whatever the map.
not sure it's a good point...
Why would they fail 'now', faster reload would not really impact on thuds ability to kill rockos, it's more likely that you could always use thuds to kill rockos and people are only making them now cause of the hype...
bashar
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Joined: 03 Dec 2006, 23:06

Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by bashar »

not convinced but let's wait...
thuds always good to kill rockos but now they seems good for all, no?
Llamadeus
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Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by Llamadeus »

TheFatController wrote:It's more likely that you could always use thuds to kill rockos and people are only making them now cause of the hype...
This sounds pretty doubtful to me since the previous hammer-rocko dynamic had been pretty well explored in 1v1.

They always stood a good chance on certain maps and were preferable in a lot of situations. Like once it gets cramped enough the extra range of the rocko is outweighed by the superior stats of the hammer or once there's enough debris on the battlefield to block a signficant number of rockets.

An extra 7% (with an even higher effective dps increase) is hardly a trivial amount and I don't know why anyone would argue otherwise.

The problem with the thud as the "primary" t1 kbot is that it's also the most expensive and resilient t1 kbot. It's a lot easier to imagine the situations where you'd transition from storms into thuds than vice versa.

Storm/rocko as the "primary" unit leads to more dynamic games as you can start putting pressure on an llt right away and are more responsive/satisfying to micro.

I guess some of this is kinda theoretical though so don't quote me on it!! I wouldn't mind a compromise where thuds kept some of their new advantages but not all.
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kburts
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Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by kburts »

im not quite sure.. but i think he was joking
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Beherith
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Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by Beherith »

Ok, so I played some games, and now i see what this is all about. Thuds are ridiculously OP with their near 100% hit chance now. Better than levelers too, cause they have better sight range.
Last edited by Beherith on 25 Apr 2009, 23:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Jazcash
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Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 17:39

Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by Jazcash »

NERF NERF NERF NERF
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flop
Posts: 335
Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 05:44

Re: hammer/thud change revert?

Post by flop »

DONT NERF

REVERT
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