[old] Balanced Annihilation V6.81

[smoth]

this:



Did it in my last game of gundam, shit should work in ba...

[Raptor]

Regarding the AA-bots shooting ground...

Jethros and Crashers have 760/800 range.
Sam trucks have 600 range, HLTs have 620.
Vipers and Pitbulls... have 730.
T1 arty has 710 range.

They have the same speed as SAM trucks but have over twice the turnrate and accelerate 4 times as fast as SAM trucks.

Its already hard enough to kill SAM trucks before they retreat into defenses, but killing Jethros and Crashers would be virtually impossible due to theyr much higher range, turnaround rate and acceleration.
Plus, they could kill HLTs with ease, something SAM trucks are rather bad at. In fact they could even kill Pitbulls and Vipers with just as much ease as they kill HLTs.
I'm also pretty sure they have a smaller footprint than SAM trucks, so you'd be able to concentrate much more firepower at one spot, though usually its not a good idea to put kbots in a blob (1 plasma hit and they start flying).

So in conclusion, I agree with whoever said making em shoot ground would be a bad move.


Heres a alternate suggestion to make Kbots stronger: Let rezbots ressurect faster - maybe even at reduced cost.
Yes, they are already great - but I rarely see them getting used for ressurecting, 95% of the time they do repair work/reclaiming only.


Btw, while I'm already posting here... I heard mobile antinukes miss sometimes. Is that correct? If it is, how often? And do Aircraft carriers miss too?

[[Krogoth86]]

Or you do the certainly most obvious thing:
Remove the Samson/Slashers's ground attack ability. Vehicles have a dedicated artillery unit so there should be no need for this except making someone who goes vehicles highly resistant to air attacks in contrast to someone who doesn't. That also would make things a bit more interesting for someone going air in a team game. Well ok BA isn't about teamgames but still you might actually do something with the T1 gunships except for bypassing defenses and strike the bases (at least for Arm). Without AA-vehicles being virtually along the entire front because of them being an allround combat unit, there's a lot more room for this...

[pintle]

Xta aa units have really crap los. They need either a com push support, or raiders/tanking units out in front spotting for them.

I never understood why aa trucks are allowed to be this lolol no micro llt counter and so good at skirmishing anyway.

Fixing veh pwning kbots in the field still leaves the problem of t1 arti and t1 amphibs.

I would heartily recommend that the people posting their thoughts on this spend a few games learning kbot/veh balance in xta and sa (flame on brothers) and see how the basic approaches could be adapted to ba style play.

[Klopper]

AA trucks with anti-ground abilities currently are one of the most important means to keep happy early lol-pushing commanders at bay though (besides combomb and rockos+spotter).

[BaNa]

I think taking away the sam trucks land-shooting ability would be a bad move. I dont have any concrete reasons but i recall the many rebalances of the game where they only shot air. It was less fun to play that way. I dont know about jethros shooting land, there would have to be a range nerf involved for sure. I think such radical changes are probably outside the scope of such a quasi-conservative mod. A smallish change to rezzers and some sort of hammer / pw buff would be interesting to try. Let us playtest it!

btw guys, wouldnt it be quite easy to change these ranges and damages ourselves? why not make a day out of it and try some teamgames with the proposed changes. We can upload the res and everyone profits. (the modnames could be BA_TEST_ENDER or something(or drop the BA so as not to infringe or confuse))

[YokoZar]

But either way, I agree that the idea is too destabilizing for BA. There probably is no good way to give Kbots a way to fight SAM-trucks beyond "rush forward and ignore the trucks and pound on anything you find on the way".

That's a good strategy though - forcing someone to move his trucks away from his base or even just his expansion will wreck his economy.

[smoth]

what if the vehicles just tracked targets slower? Works in gundam for several units.

[imbaczek]

been playing a bit of DOW2 lately, which made me realize that BA (any mod, actually) could use a mod option that completely disables static d-fens. consider this a half-serious suggestion, one that may result in epic fail or epic fun (or both ^^)

[Gota]

You mean any base building...s44 is very similair...
Plus there is no ta mod which is RPG like..That is a real shame.

[Hacked]

oo no defense mode sounds really fun
it sure sounds alot like comet catcher

[Pxtl]

No defense on an econ-intensive game is no fun, imho - I don't like trying to defend static buildings without static defenses. No defense works better in games where your base isn't critical to defend - more about holding territory and a few cheap factories.

Agree about the RPG mod. We need DOTA for Spring.

And speaking of WC3 maps-as-mods, we also need that damned Tower Defense. Smoth!

[TradeMark]

been playing a bit of DOW2 lately, which made me realize that BA (any mod, actually) could use a mod option that completely disables static d-fens. consider this a half-serious suggestion, one that may result in epic fail or epic fun (or both ^^)

Hmm...

There was topic about this lately:
http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... 21&t=16350

I also wanted same:
http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... 13&t=17392

I think Spring Engine doesnt support this yet...

[Pxtl]

CA has been including modoptions that disable groups of units for years. And so does HA... as was mentioned in one of those threads. It's only not supported for map-based code... and even then, I'm not positive.

[smoth]

And speaking of WC3 maps-as-mods, we also need that damned Tower Defense. Smoth!

all things come in time.

It seems like it was largely ignored but what is wrong with playing with turret rotation speeds on vehicles? that should help make kbots more usefull.

[Pxtl]

I think the problem is that it would make vehicular combat incredibly frustrating and confusing. I remember turret rotation buffs was a Caydr thing that was well-received, not because vehicles needed a buff, but because dealing with slow turret rotation was unpredictable and frustrating. Considering the high speed of vehicles, slow turrets just cause havoc, since two groups of vehicles can pass right through each other barely firing a shot.

[Sleksa]

every "problem" posted in this thread could be solved by the poster actually playing the vidyagame and applying l2p, instead of crying in the whorums how things should be so their awesome strats would work

[Pxtl]

@Sleksa.

Yes, the strategies they're trying don't work. We get that. Nobody's arguing with you.

The point is that there isn't that much variance in BA gameplay. For most players, L1 play is about climbing the tank ladder, while one crazy guy does stuff involving transports. While there's fun and skill involved in that, there isn't much variety. BA has a very long list of units, but 90% of them are useful in very specific, fringe scenarios.

When was the last time you used a hammer? Really, that's the consensus here. The L1 cannon-kbots need a slight buff, kbots in general (particularly the peewee/AK) need to stop chain-exploding. Also, it would be nice if the Leveller got an arced weapon or noselfpwn, because it can't be used in micro _or_ macro situations well in its current state. Conbots are too crappy compared to convehs, but there is no consensus as to what the best fix for this is.

The other complaint is that the high energy costs of kbots mean that the lower price of the kbot lab is overshadowed by the high energy investment needed to start cranking them out.

The rest of the talk here is mostly just spitballing. I have my own wacky ideas, but obviously I know others have their own.

[Sleksa]

Lets take a look at where you went wrong

that's the consensus here

This isnt absolute annihilation thread where you get changes made to the game by shouting long enough.

The point is that there isn't that much variance in BA gameplay.

Well, yeah. Cometcatcher will always include flashes and mexes and llts and jeffies, but watching andy vs day replays where day nukes a hole into andy's flash wall and then pour through is something that to my eyes makes this game so interesting

When was the last time you used a hammer?

Last time i used hammers was when i last played brazillian

Really, that's the consensus here. The L1 cannon-kbots need a slight buff

Yet again, this is not the absolute annihilation thread where you will get the changes you want by chanting them enough



But to delve further ill take a look at youre complete lack of how this game is played.

Also, it would be nice if the Leveller got an arced weapon or noselfpwn, because it can't be used in micro _or_ macro situations

First of all, the whole point of the leveler is the fast hitting impulse that keeps the flash away from range.

It can be used in micro situations(get a radar to spot the flash before theyre in range?) AND macro situations (making a line of them @ comet is what makes the game go into stumpy/t2 level)

Conbots are too crappy compared to convehs, but there is no consensus as to what the best fix for this is.

I have no idea why the 2 should even be on the same level, as is, youre likely to face conbots when youre going conbots too (hilly maps like brazillian), with the enemy gaining disadvantage going vehicles (no llts on hills, no mexes on hills, no radars on hills, crappy tank pathfinding on tight areas)

---to sum this useless post into TLDR version, youre a n00b, your ideas are retarded and your words carry no weight at all ":-)"

[Pxtl]

That's the point. Every response you have is "this is the unit you use in this environment". Hammers are only useful on extremely hilly maps like Brazillian, not kbot maps that encourage moderate mixed use of units (like the DSD upper). Levellers are just "what tides you over for defense until stumpy-spam time". They're only useful for defending against a single unit - the fast-attack tanks, and only under specific circumstances. They're like the Spy from Stratego. That's over-specialized, which is my point.

Wouldn't it be nice to actually have more divergent gameplay?

And even with radar, a leveller will easily be outmaneuvered in a micro situation. Spread the flashes out and get into point-blank range. Hide a spotter behind wrecks and let an a ranged unit pound it into oblivion. I'm sure you've done that yourself many times.

The leveller has _one_ job in your mind, and even then it has weaknesses that let it be outmaneuvered at that one job. Doesn't that bother you? Would it ruin the leveller to have muzzle velocity similar to the Stumpy? Stumpies can still hit flashes, and the huge blast radius tends to mean that a near-miss would still pwn a flash.

And for all your righteous horning about vehicles being unable to build on elevated terrain on hilly maps, vehicles don't have to make that sacrifice - they have amphib cons that let them build on hills. The bigger problem vehicles face on those maps is how big and cumbersome the regular conveh will be driving around the tight little home-base while spamming econ.