Division Zero and .NET in KP 3.6

[mammadori]

Hi all,
I'm a newcomer here and I would like to know if Division by Zero and .NET forks are merged in KP3.6 and if they work with latest spring engine.

This because I would like to package Kernel Panic for debian and I want the whole thing if possible.

[zwzsg]

Hi all,
I'm a newcomer here and I would like to know if Division by Zero and .NET forks are merged in KP3.6 and if they work with latest spring engine.

Yes, yes. Div0 and .NET were merged back into the main branch of Kernel Panic. So were the Eviless mutator, and even the Touhou branch (though as a secret/easter egg).

In lastest Spring engine (0.80.5 and over AFAIK), there's a bug with the AIs written in Lua (as opposed to the AIs written in C++ or Java). That bug make the engine crash when a Lua AI dies, and cause desync in multiplayer. Hoiju mentionning something about that bug and Linux/Windows, so maybe Linux is less affected. Anyway, Kernel Panic relies on LuaAI (included in the mod s7d file itself) for the single player part, so you should consider checking that or waiting for a new Spring release.

Because going through a lobby when you just wanna play alone vs AI is cumbersome and confusing, I made a small application to create and run KP skirmishes. Because that app was an .exe written in Borland C++ and thus not cross-plateform. I wrote the same functionality as a Lua widget (so inside the mod, cross-plateform, etc...). But because I was the first one to use the Spring.Restart function I had asked for, I have called it in a bad way, making it not work (Spring close and does not restart) on some machines. So I made this patch which should use the Spring.Restart command in a better way, though I don't really know. Anyway, so try the single player menu of KP3.6, if it doesn't work try the one from the patch, and then tell me which do and do not work. Might release a KP 3.7, which will be just 3.6 and that fix, soon too.

To trigger the single player menu, simply run Spring.exe directly, choosing the correct mod, any map, and any script that won't outright crash. If you're making a polished package, you might want to make a link for player to easily trigger the single player menu while skipping the beach menu, that would be done by running Spring.exe with a dummy startscript: Any startscript that use the mod kernel panic without the mod specific mod option. Err, to say it simpler:

In your package:
- Include the following dummy_startscript.txt
- Put in whatever desktop or start menu a link to: Spring.exe dummy_startscript.txt (obviously translated in linux ways)
- Try it: You should see a greenish menu, letting you play skirmishes and missions.
- If when attempting to run a skirmish or a mission, Spring just close done, then edit dummy_startscript.txt to use that patch instead.

Either way, tell me.

[KDR_11k]

You'd want to remove the Touhou characters, they're copyrighted and although Touhou is known to receive unlicensed use in commercial products without problem it should still not be packaged into something that's distributed as free.

[zwzsg]

Considering that girls with magical powers aren't a touhou exclusivity, and that all the art is brand new made just for Kernel Panic, if we removed the names, we'd be clear, wouldn't we?

[Neddie]

Yes.

[zwzsg]

Give me three girls names and one faction name then.

Weapon name are internal so I could go with just "cyan shot" instead of "Hakurei Yin-Yang Orb".

Then the last thing left looking like Touhou would be the bullet graphism:



Do you think that shape is copyrighted, or in any in way close enough to touhou to constitute copyright infrigment?

[Neddie]

Asuka, Mizuki, Natsumi...
Amanda, Marie, Ophelia...

Gynarch, Oppositional, Fairies, Poetix, Erotix. Pick one and go.

And no, the shape isn't subject to copyright.

[zwzsg]

Oh wait, there's also the clothing: maybe KDR_11k duplicated the specific clothing and outlook precisely enough that they're unmistakingly the touhou characters and not some generic magic girls. Well, thanks to team color, at least the color schemes don't match.

[SinbadEV]

Maybe they are Pixies.

[KDR_11k]

Considering that girls with magical powers aren't a touhou exclusivity, and that all the art is brand new made just for Kernel Panic, if we removed the names, we'd be clear, wouldn't we?

The concepts are specific Touhou characters (except for the fairy, that's just made up), hence the models are derivative works. The shot graphic are really nothing to worry about though, they're generic designs you'll see in thousands of shmups.

I used the Twilight Frontier versions of the designs since IMO they're better at drawing than ZUN himself:

Reimu:

Notable characteristics: Exposed armpits, bow in the hair with a white edge, dotted red lines (ribbons that weave in and out actually) on the sleeve. This differs from regular shrine maiden outfits which have only a plain white upper part and a red skirt (and no exposed armpits).

Marisa:


Alice:



Ingame models:
[img]http://kdr_11k.from-hell.net/screen022%20copy.jpg[/img]

I think I got the likenesses down very well...

[Pxtl]

I'd never actually seen the Touhou faction - never having played any Touhou games, I'd always assumed they were a reskin of the Lolimod units. Those are really good looking units - much better than the Lolimod models. It's too bad you didn't put those in a game where they could be front-and-center instead of hidden away as an easter-egg in KP.

[Neddie]

I think we just run with it, they're not the same model or texture, and nothing is not derivative. That penguin racing game is just Mario Kart, etcetera.

[KDR_11k]

Seriously, it's a secret anyway and compromises the "everything free" idea of Kernel Panic, it shouldn't be part of the main release.

[mammadori]

Seriously, it's a secret anyway and compromises the "everything free" idea of Kernel Panic, it shouldn't be part of the main release.

Then I'll wait another release of KP with those char stripped before pushing it to debian.

[BaNa]

Then I'll wait another release of KP with those char stripped before pushing it to debian.

I'd like to see those chars stripped too, ifyaknowwhatimean...

*wink*

[Pxtl]

Gut them out, and release them as a mutator with them included as a real faction.

[zwzsg]

Hi! I made you a .sd7

• Where I trimmed:
  • Hidden factions:
    • Old hacker:
      • Despite a large internet diffusion that gave it an iconic status amongst internet trolls, the design the old hacker homebase is modelled after may arguably have its copyright held by Kirk Johnson.
      • The trimawed underground attack of the old worm is undisputably influenced by the usual representations of the most widely known element of the work of the Herbert family.
      Since windows and dos are the same between old and new hacker, the only remaining difference between old and new hacker would have been the bug, and although the old bug is quite cute now that the Spring engine doesn't maim its walk animation, a one unit difference is not enough to warrant a whole new faction.
    • Touhou:
      • As I realised before KDR_11k stressed it again, the details of the clothing match closely enough that it would be bad faith to claim the models of those factions were not attempting to evoke characters owned by Team Shanghai Alice.
    • Experiment:
      • After removing two of the hidden factions, might as well remove the third and last one. I don't see what copyright it could have been breaking, since even though all the experiment models are total rip-off, they are rip-off of System and Hacker genuinely original models.
  • GPL code:
    • The two gadgets (twice the same) and one widget taken from CA: I hope the fact that I could just delete them and have the mod in working order proves that they weren't linked intimately enough for GPL contamination to have already taken place. I am however pretty sure simply mentionning how I just now removed them will be enough to spark one of those heated license debate the Spring forum was always customary of, while if I hadn't mentionned it not a single eyelid would have batted. Anyway, even if having at one point in the Kernel Panic 7-zip archive three GPL files that weren't even needed but just provided a little more confort* was enough for KP to forever bear the GPL stain, well, I surely hope Debian isn't adverse the license that's so closely intertwined with Linux to the layman.
    * Actually, removing autohold gadget ricocheted in me changing the initialisation of one variable from TRUE to FALSE in worm.bos and recompiling it, after I realised my missions relied on restoring an order queue changing the autohold setting once rather than the Regenerative AI checking and forcing the fire at will setting every cloacking time like KP Lua AI does. So, yeah, technically, I had to modify another file or else in some missions worms wouldn't attack after removing the autohold gadget.
  Disclaimer: My removal of these files for this particular version should not be considered as an acknowledgement of any copyright violation, I reserve the right to argue that you can still be P.D. with Touhou units, but let's debate that later, for now I just wanna grab the opportunity of a larger KP diffusion by providing whatever mammadori asked for.
• Also included is that one fix reguarding Spring.Restart calling syntax.
• In addition, there's some tiny improvment to the code to run missions, such as forcing the mod name into the startscript that are run through the ingame menu, thus removing the last location where the mod name had to be manually recopied. (thanks hoijui for the regexp syntax).
• Plus some minor fixes like the version name from test builds not breaking SoS and NoRez Lua anymore.
• And lastely, I made two new missions. Again, I began with the intent of making a short and easy mission, and ended up with a mischievous hour-long puzzle that even I can't win.
• But the bulk of the changes are about thoroughly but cleanly cutting away the hidden factions.

I would give you that .sd7, but, Spring 80.5.0 to 80.5.1 are broken! And by the look of it, I'll have time to gather more KP fixes and more KP missions by the time Auswaschbar is back to make a new Spring engine release.

[KDR_11k]

What's broken about Spring (other than that idiotic removal of set ALPHA_THRESHOLD)?

[zwzsg]

What's broken about Spring ?

LuaAI.

In short:

• You will need a special build of Spring engine that has the LuaAI fixes but still sync with 0.80.5.1.
• I will have to modify Kernel Panic Missions and Gadget so instead of using various LuaAI not listed in LuaAI.lua, it will use always the same listed LuaAI, but change its behaviour with custom team tags.

At length:

<zwzsg> Say, can you explain me again the consequence of the 0.80.5.1 LuaAI bug under Linux?
<[ARP]hoijui_irc> Ok.. There were, multiple ones. It was an uninitialzied var. Under windows, it was set to 0 -> false by the compiler. While on linux, it just had a random value, which is usually != 0 ->true. The var was: isLuaAI. Was used by some LuaAIs, dunnu if you used it. Or maybe it was inside the engine only...
<[ARP]hoijui_irc> also.. the fixes are on the 0.80.5-branch, and should sync with the release version, we are just waiting for Aus, but you may get it from the buildbot or compile yourself till htne

<[ARP]hoijui_irc> this is just related to intiailzing the AI
<zwzsg> Well, the initalisation goes fine, it's when I kill the last unit of the AI that it crashes.
<[ARP]hoijui_irc> yeah.. that is an other fix
<[ARP]hoijui_irc> is also in this branch
<[ARP]hoijui_irc> this will also happen on linux

<[ARP]hoijui_irc> zwzsg, build is done
<zwzsg> neither the one you just built nor the one in topic have the fix I am looking for. Oh... that's odd. I could kill a LuAI without crash, it's just that mission gadget that made it crash. Oh I see: Aborting the game, unknown skirmish AI specified.
<[ARP]hoijui_irc> mm sounds strange
<zwzsg> No it's explainable. For single player, I create startscript that create AI that are not referenced in LuaAI.lua. Because those AI would not work outside my custom startscripts. Or sometime I just want a team to idle. And in 0.80.4.2 it worked fine. I could have some sort of hidden LuaAI for my missions, without having any lobby knowing about them. But I guess you wrote something that compares the AI name in the startscript with the AI name listed in LuaAI.lua. If I attempt to explain that in the forum, I'm so gonna be flamed for thinking outside your box. But I would really hate having to fill up the drop down box with my missions AI, and having to tell noobs "No don't use that one, no don't use that one, no don't use that one, not don't use one, yes that one".

<[ARP]hoijui_irc> it was a pain to support normal LuaAI already. it just sucks that i have to change hte code once again.. nobody ever wanted to do that stuff for LuaAI suport, and i did not care about lua AI.. And got little info about how htey work. And now you tell me that even what i got is false. And i have to edit the code again. And it wil be uglier afterwards. Its just a fail concept to have LuaAIs so lously defined in general, becuase the engine unitsync has to know about them. Thats not your fault. But its my problem. I know i dont have to do much, but .. whatever i do to Lua AI i ave no idea if it will work, and what it will break, and it will always be more dirty than clean. So i hate doing stuff for Lua AI. It seems ot me like it was a one hour job, from whoever introduced it, and poorly htough out. If i dont do it, nobody will, and Lua AIs will soon not be usable at all. Casue i wont ismply not do changed becuase i dont know how to do it wiht Lua AI, or cuase some of them could break cuase they dont adhere to any standards cause there are none.

<zwzsg> I have an idea to fix my problem with LuaAI that I don't want to show. Which would not require any work engine side. I'll always use tell Spring I'm using the same LuaAI, "Kernel Panic Lua AI", which is declared in LuaAI.lua.
<BrainDamage> then you'll switch the ai type using an additional config?
<zwzsg> Yeah, using a the team custom tags. Do you see any flaw in that plan?
<BrainDamage> i see no problems with that.

[zwzsg]

Then I'll wait another release of KP with those char stripped before pushing it to debian.

There. You must of course use the content of the zip, not the zip itself.

Important:
Create a shortcut that runs:
spring dummy_startscript.txt
and name it:
Kernel Panic Single Player