Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

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1v0ry_k1ng
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Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 08 Jan 2012, 18:59

Just my PoV, but new banisher with 2x RoF is not nearly as interesting to micro! Previously it was a premier hit and run unit with badass knockback - now its moving back towards the same brawling role of other riot units. It might make it less useful for cleaning up glaives, but it makes it considerably more useful in every other respect to have the longer reload. It also had more character imo!
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Licho
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Licho » 09 Jan 2012, 04:39

i liked the long range banisher
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Pxtl
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Pxtl » 09 Jan 2012, 06:38

If the Banisher weren't the only antiswarm in the Tank lab, I'd agree with you. But considering how tricky the tank lab's raiders are, the tank lab seriously needs a low-micro antiswarm unit.

In general, the whole Tank Lab is just a complete mess and really is only functional as "L2 vehicles".
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Google_Frog
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Google_Frog » 09 Jan 2012, 09:08

I agree about Banisher. I should revert the change and give it some other buff, a small range buff would work to it's strength.
i liked the long range banisher
Range was not changed. Do you think it was because at the time I commented that I would have increased range instead? Or did Banisher have more range a few years ago?

I disagree with Pxtl and think Tanks design works reasonably well. A few units may have balance issues but the main units are fairly good. It may look like a mess if you try to play it like many other factories because I've found Tank plays quite differently.
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luckywaldo7
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by luckywaldo7 » 09 Jan 2012, 14:54

Classic banisher had >hlt range. (See BA banisher actually, it was basically that)

The problem with classic banisher though was role overlap with pillager: long-range aoe. (And lack of a riot unit for tanks) The only difference was that it had less potential dps, but homed instead.

I think the lower-ROF riot banisher worked pretty well as a skrim, but it was still pretty terrible as a riot. Tank lab actually really needs both roles, so I wouldn't mind if banisher was made more skirmy again if tanks get a proper riot option.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 09 Jan 2012, 15:11

~800m is too much to pay for a counter to 65m units anyway, riot unit needs to be more affordable.

imo, re-role the kodachi into a riot type -
heavy vehicles are already supreme at rolling over light defenses and already have a raider in the form of the panther. hit & run doesn't fit the factory's theme that well and the unit itself doesn't work that well, either hitting for massive damage or missing & dying stupidly. Convert into slow flamethrower trike that explodes when destroyed = big win :-)
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scifi
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by scifi » 09 Jan 2012, 18:39

i did in fact liked the old banisher more.

The (long range banisher)
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Godde
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Godde » 09 Jan 2012, 21:06

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: heavy vehicles are already supreme at rolling over light defenses and already have a raider in the form of the panther.
The panther costs like 320. It's not good at killing stuff its just good at chasing down and paralysing lesser cost enemy stuff. Anything else its good at?
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Pxtl
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Pxtl » 09 Jan 2012, 23:01

Again, a raider that can't fight other raiders, an antiswarmer that is easy to overwhelm thanks to its low rate-of-fire, another raider that is alternately the most OP and UP unit depending on whether you obsessively micro it, two artillery units, and an assault tank that is so slow and fat that it basically is guaranteed to get stuck in wreckage and pummeled into oblivion on its way to its destination and leave the player wondering why they didn't techswitch since they obviously had metal to burn anyways, and a painfully expensive and slow constructor. Oh, and another assault tank.

The whole lab basically is still "L2 vehicles" - the units nicely compliment the various "starting" labs but can't stand on their own (the Banisher works for supporting other Antiswarm work, the Panther is nice when backing up more conventional raiders, the tremor is handy to bring out when you need to crack heavy shieldporc, of course, like if you're rolling Cloakies.

But basically, the lab kind of subverts the whole concept of Flat Balance. Almost *nothing* in this lab is useful as a starting lab.

I rarely see tanks in the wild. Even in hyper-porcy maps that you'd think would be tank bread-and-butter, the Tremor seems to be the only thing that excels.
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Saktoth
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Saktoth » 10 Jan 2012, 05:44

Tank is fine, as a second factory Check Floris's recent commentated game with Google vs Altavista.

I agree that Banisher might be more interesting as a Skirmisher or Support unit. I also agree that this would mean the factory probably needs a dedicated Riot. However, the Koda was added to the lineup (and made much cheaper) in order to give the factory early-raiding capacity, to stop the enemy naked-expanding the moment he saw Tanks. Frankly, if anything the Koda could afford to be worse vs raiders and better vs buildings, as the Welder is more able to handle enemy raiders, and all you need the Koda for is to check enemy expansions. Panther is too expensive for this, but honestly, right now, the Panther is not a very good unit either way.

Also, Flat balance != starting factory. Tank was not meant to be a starting factory in 1v1 in the original design, just like Planes and, less so, Gunships arent. We have slowly moved that direction though, so it is relevant to ask whether Tanks are viable as a starting fac and under what circumstances (Team? 1v1?).

Flat balance just means no 'teching', IE, putting 'better' units behind arbitrary barriers, so that once you 'tech', you have no reason to build the 'worse' units. No enforced redundency: If there is redundency, it should be based on dynamic states, such as the enemies defensive emplacements, unit composition, etc.
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Pxtl
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Pxtl » 10 Jan 2012, 08:19

Fair enough, it just feels like the Tank lab is a de-facto L2... if you made the lab *require* a previous factory, nothing would change because starting with it doesn't work anyways. At least the aerial facs are a viable start in a teamgame... the tank lab isn't really effective even in that context.

Imho, the big thing the tank fac needs is a higher-trajectory weapon on the Kodas. With their low profile and massive explosion, it's too easy for them to self-pwn when they're behind a wreck or a teammate, waisting a valuable shot and possibly themselves. Giving the Koda's weapon a flight-path similar to the Recluse would do a hell of a lot for the unit's micro troubles, also making it more definitely an anti-building weapon thanks to a longer flight-time that would ruin it for firing on raiders.

My approach for the Banisher: Have some fun with its stats. Give it *both* a vicious rate-of-fire and power, but make it into a stockpile weapon with an 8-missile cap (Banisher starts equipped with 2)... and here's the fun-part: let it stock its launcher using the Puppy Goo auto-reclaiming behavior, but instead of creating puppies it creates missiles. ZK has already set a precedent with the Felon for having a unit that you have to be careful what it shoots for fear of draining itself. Having a beastly unit that sits in the wreckage field sucking up wrecks to arm itself would be different.

Random thought: change the Welder's weapon into a gravity gun. It's main use is chasing away raiders anyways, and gravity guns are underused.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Google_Frog » 10 Jan 2012, 10:44

Pxtl I still disagree with almost everything you have said. Have you really tried to use Tank since the TurnInPlace fix made them viable again? Tank was not designed to be startable in 1v1 but apparently it is.

Welder is probably crazy-good with it's HP and damage to expand quickly for a lot less cost than other raiders. Goliath is a land based Krow for a fraction of the cost. It can easily deal damage and come back for repair. Reaper is similar yet I think it is distinct enough to deserve a place.

Pillager is good riot artillery but if you start tanks a Reaper is often more effective against early defences. Tremor and Pillager are a good example of flat balance situationalism, they aren't seen at the start not because they cannot be built but because noone has heavy defence at the start.

Banisher is a bit poor but the factory is already working without it. On that note I reverted Sak's ROF change and changed range from 400 -> 460 instead.

The raiders are a little bit of a mess but with decent raiders it should work fine.
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Saktoth
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Saktoth » 10 Jan 2012, 13:12

I've thought about a unit that basically stocks puppies as missiles (or gets a metal 'shield' from wrecks), but this is a 'fun' unit, probably for the jump factory, not for Banisher. Gravity guns are really situational, IMO we should have a mobile gravity unit, but not on a mainline constructor.

Anyway, it is actually rather start viable in a 4v4+ even without Koda. As long as your allies can do the raiding, you can come out with an early lugar or reaper and utterly crush any defence in mid, and you're totally safe from early raids due to your cons. Whether it is start viable in 1v1, I'm not sure, and it isn't a disaster if it isn't. But I think we should make it one just because of the different way that it plays and the variety this adds.

What really needs fixing is the Koda and Panther, as Google said.
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Pxtl
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Pxtl » 10 Jan 2012, 15:28

Google_Frog wrote:Pxtl I still disagree with almost everything you have said. Have you really tried to use Tank since the TurnInPlace fix made them viable again? Tank was not designed to be startable in 1v1 but apparently it is.

Welder is probably crazy-good with it's HP and damage to expand quickly for a lot less cost than other raiders. Goliath is a land based Krow for a fraction of the cost. It can easily deal damage and come back for repair. Reaper is similar yet I think it is distinct enough to deserve a place.

Pillager is good riot artillery but if you start tanks a Reaper is often more effective against early defences. Tremor and Pillager are a good example of flat balance situationalism, they aren't seen at the start not because they cannot be built but because noone has heavy defence at the start.

Banisher is a bit poor but the factory is already working without it. On that note I reverted Sak's ROF change and changed range from 400 -> 460 instead.

The raiders are a little bit of a mess but with decent raiders it should work fine.
Fair enough, I was just idea-spitballing. About a six months ago I obsessively tried to find good openers with the Tank lab game after game in teamgames and came up bupkis. These days I only roll tanks when I want artillery options and I don't want to commit to hovers just for the pene. TurnInPlace might make it better - the piss-poor mobility of the assault units was the biggest frustration, plus the constant self-pwnage of the Kodas (but when I obsessively micro'd them and kept clear of *anything* that could block the shot I could do terrifying things). While welders *do* shut down the enemy's ability to raid your cons, it's not like they're a substitute for a decent defensive raider - welders are too slow and expensive to be everywhere at once like a raider. My usual opener was Welder + Koda + panther, where the Koda was my offense and the panther was my roaming defense... once I got a second Koda I could hit-and-run defended targets without losing a unit... but the big frustration was the sluggish lone welder where I could have multiple nimble lighter cons. Again, hopefully the turninplace fix will take care of my frustrations with their lack of mobility.

As I said, most of that was just crapping out ideas. The big thing I want to see is weapon on the Koda that's less apt to misfire and more manoeverable panthers.
Last edited by Pxtl on 10 Jan 2012, 15:55, edited 1 time in total.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 10 Jan 2012, 15:47

welder is best con 100%! I don't understand your beef with tanks, I consider it one of the most powerful labs in team games.

atm my primary concerns:

1) Mace is OP. In particular, it shoots down planes (not gunships though, which seem to be beam resistant) almost instantly and defeats most of its counters.

2) The Stiletto is OP.. someone care to explain why it does so much more EMP damage than all other EMP sources, and in a large AoE? It can EMP gollies in one pass!

3) The Halberds weapon looks very silly
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Pxtl
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Pxtl » 10 Jan 2012, 15:53

That and am I the only one who's bothered by the fact that the Hovercon and the Mason now have near-identical stats?
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Google_Frog
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Google_Frog » 10 Jan 2012, 16:08

No but it's a pretty low priority concern.

Mace - they've got to know how to counter it.

Welder - it's the new Puppy! http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/45395 (true that is ffa).

Stiletto - Yes, underused.
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Saktoth
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Saktoth » 11 Jan 2012, 15:00

IMO, for its HP and very low para time, Stiletto is UP at 600 cost. You might as well use mass firestorm and just kill your target. Its only good vs shields, or versus those few units that are too expensive for firestorm to really kill them but cheap enough to be spammed (stuff in the ~200 cost range like ravagers, though ravagers tend to spread due to turning). Yeah technically it does a lot of damage, but most of these shots just miss.

Welder is totally the new puppy, or rather, the original puppy. We've always known this in FFA, back in the days of Energy Spire i'd go pure welder often enough. If you compare it to other cons bp/cost ratios, you actually only pay like 20-40m for all of its offensive capacities on an incredibly beefy unit. The real advantage though is that at any time, if the enemy sends something a bit too much for you to handle, you can instabuild llt's with all that excess BP. You dont even need to defense creep, you can make the LLT's entirely on-demand, as soon as he pushes back at you. Honestly, this is how I always handle the 'riot' portion of the Tank factory, mass cons.
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Licho
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by Licho » 11 Jan 2012, 16:24

Stillety is, according to modstats, consistently the best paralyzer (in cost paralyzed/investment)

Tick is consistently the worst.
It PARALYZES less than roach KILLS per cost.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Bring back the old low RoF banisher!

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 11 Jan 2012, 16:36

Stiletto does 120,000 EMP damage over a wide AoE, and flies in at high speed. ofc its better
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