true coco believer - Page 2

true coco believer

A dynamic game undergoing constant development and refinement, that attempts to balance playability with fresh and innovative features.

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Godde
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Re: true coco believer

Post by Godde » 03 Jan 2012, 22:19

Prominence wrote:You have to assume the newbs aren't going to be affective whether they listen or not listen. Even if they did listen, they won't carry out with same effectiveness as the skilled players.
Newbs can be effective. They might even be more effective than a better player by luck like if they try harass where a skilled player think the payoff is too little compared to the risk and they actually do damage.

A newb can be told to eco or such without being much less effective than a proplayer and then the proplayer doesn't have to spend metal on mexes.

Arguebly the best for the team would be to give units to the best player when he needs them but how fun would that be?

I usually try to attack with the noob players. Even if the noob player is gona lose his units if I join in can easily get a few free kills. Going alone long into the enemy territory is dangerous as you might get all the enemy team against you, even the noobs and if you don't get support from your allies it might not do much.
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albator
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Re: true coco believer

Post by albator » 03 Jan 2012, 23:49

Godde wrote:
Prominence wrote:You have to assume the newbs aren't going to be affective whether they listen or not listen. Even if they did listen, they won't carry out with same effectiveness as the skilled players.
Newbs can be effective. They might even be more effective than a better player by luck like if they try harass where a skilled player think the payoff is too little compared to the risk and they actually do damage.
=> PRO are noob
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Johannes
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Re: true coco believer

Post by Johannes » 04 Jan 2012, 00:02

luckywaldo7 wrote:And with exclusively veteran games it opens of a lot of possiblities for teamplay, where certain players can focus on maintaining the pressure while another teammate or two offers support and builds team eco.
That's totally possible without communism too when playing with people you trust.
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luckywaldo7
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Re: true coco believer

Post by luckywaldo7 » 04 Jan 2012, 02:34

Completely true also, your teammates can manually share mexes and energy structures.

You need to be teamed with a 100% trustworthy team though, as you might have other teammates who bitch about their mex spots being taken and dgun your mexes to replace with their own.
Godde wrote:
Prominence wrote:You have to assume the newbs aren't going to be affective whether they listen or not listen. Even if they did listen, they won't carry out with same effectiveness as the skilled players.
Newbs can be effective. They might even be more effective than a better player by luck like if they try harass where a skilled player think the payoff is too little compared to the risk and they actually do damage.
You can trust a pro player to always do generally good play. Its the newbs you need to watch out for, because you never know when they will do something really really stupid.

Generally more to watch out for in FFA though, they tend to disregard whatever politic-economic situation is playing out and just attack or nuke for the lulz of it.
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nightcold
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Re: true coco believer

Post by nightcold » 04 Jan 2012, 21:05

most people who make "the noobs pulling down the team argument" forget that if the teams are balanced(and they prob are, unless u are playing pw) there are just as many noobs on both teams.....

i might add that i love the co-oping rather than fighting with my allies over metal........
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SirMaverick
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Re: true coco believer

Post by SirMaverick » 05 Jan 2012, 01:56

Godde wrote:Arguebly the best for the team would be to give units to the best player when he needs them but how fun would that be?
We could make a gadget that resigns for you when there is an ally with higher elo. You don't need fun if you win, right?
nightcold wrote:i might add that i love the co-oping rather than fighting with my allies over metal........
+1
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Google_Frog
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Re: true coco believer

Post by Google_Frog » 05 Jan 2012, 12:55

Throughout designing I have kept the link between winning and fun in mind. Basically there shouldn't be a choice between winning and having fun and if there is a choice then the game is seriously broken.

The most prominent example is facplop. Without facplop the optimum strategy in a teamgame does not involve each player producing a factory as more than 2 or 3 is a waste of money for little logistical gain. The cost of the factory would be far better spent on rushing economy or units. CA was reaching the stage where people would forgo a factory for a rush and this created a choice between winning and fun; should you pool your resources and rush for the quick win (boring for the people stuck assisting a factory) or play out a 'normal' game where everyone owns units and is involved.

Similar reasoning applies to communism although it is by no means the only reason.

(Also, yes I do think BA is broken. But there are apparently no organised teams that want to win hard enough to break it.)
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: true coco believer

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 05 Jan 2012, 14:05

ZK is by no means free of ways an organised team can crush all opposition though.. two players with support commanders can combine resources (one of them reclaiming their factory) to output some fearsome rushes thanks to the flat tech structure
most people who make "the noobs pulling down the team argument" forget that if the teams are balanced(and they prob are, unless u are playing pw) there are just as many noobs on both teams
not true, often you get two similar teams, one with a slightly lower net elo and one with 4 better players and a noob. Depending on where the noob starts, it could be instant defeat when the noob crumples or it could just play out as a 4v5.. either way, it often ends badly to have someone incompetent on your team. what often makes it so infuriating is that noobs are usually unapologetic for their appalling performance (eg. being the last to die because they porc into their base, then claiming the rest of the team sucked because they survived the longest). In those situations, its very upsetting to know a % of everyones income is helping noobydoo power his 3rd sneaky pete..
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luckywaldo7
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Re: true coco believer

Post by luckywaldo7 » 05 Jan 2012, 14:49

Mostly undocumented feature: you only get 1/2 resources back from reclaiming units or structures. So at most reclaiming that factory gets you 275 metal.
1v0ry_k1ng wrote:what often makes it so infuriating is that noobs are usually unapologetic for their appalling performance (eg. being the last to die because they porc into their base, then claiming the rest of the team sucked because they survived the longest)
THIS. I think awards don't help this either, as they become motivation to hole up and whore up as many awards as possible.

I still love awards though, don't remove them. :-)
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Godde
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Re: true coco believer

Post by Godde » 05 Jan 2012, 16:12

luckywaldo7 wrote:Mostly undocumented feature: you only get 1/2 resources back from reclaiming units or structures
Isn't it 60%?
Anyway you require additional buildpower to reclaim the lab which means your com isnt doing anything for 20-30 seconds. You also lose the 0.2 metal and energy income from your factory. In a 8 player team that might be more than building an extra mex.
luckywaldo7 wrote:I think awards don't help this either, as they become motivation to hole up and whore up as many awards as possible.
I rarely think that is feasible. If there is nothing forcing the enemy players to attack the porcing player they are more likely to attack his allies and once they are dead attack the porcing player with owerwhelming numbers making the porc do too little damage to recieve awards. Although that doesn't prevent the noob from thinking he can whore awards by making defence.

Porcing the front can be quite bad for the team but then that part of the front is secure for a while atleast. I bet porcing the base rarely gives any awards.
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luckywaldo7
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Re: true coco believer

Post by luckywaldo7 » 05 Jan 2012, 17:12

http://code.google.com/p/zero-k/source/ ... drules.lua

Under reclaim, "unitEfficiency = 0.5", so it's 1/2.

So overall that makes your point stronger, that there is not much benefit to reclaiming the factory.
Godde wrote:If there is nothing forcing the enemy players to attack the porcing player they are more likely to attack his allies and once they are dead attack the porcing player with owerwhelming numbers making the porc do too little damage to recieve awards. Although that doesn't prevent the noob from thinking he can whore awards by making defence.
Nah it works pretty well actually. The porc makes great cost because everyone charges their units, so at the endgame graph the noob has small damage dealt until the massive spike at the end.
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smoth
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Re: true coco believer

Post by smoth » 05 Jan 2012, 17:27

I gotta ask, wtf does coco mean? I keep thinking this is a conan o'brien thread.
Image
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Prominence
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Re: true coco believer

Post by Prominence » 10 Jan 2012, 06:24

luckywaldo7 wrote:Scifi was pretty much spot on.
Prominence wrote:the true team game is about supporting the best player, not about teammates and all other nonsense. If best player succeeds, the team wins, and rest of teammates are just placeholders
You will find most if not all the highest ranked ZK players disagree, and I dare you to prove yourself more skillful.
The teamgame your talking about is an ideal teamgame situation where teammates have perfectly equal skill, which never happened and never will happen. Everyone is inherently different so as their skill.

In realistic situation all investments should be made towards the best player. Just like in real war, all investment is made toward the best commander who can save countless lives of soldiers, citizens, and his lieutenants.

I had BA games where all my teammates died, yet I won those games because I asked them spawn far away from me, hence I was able to acquire 2 to 3 more metal spots. That 2 to 3 metal spot investment to the best player made all the difference to the outcome of the war. It doesn't matter how many pawns I discard or lose, all that matter is the best player.

The true teamgame is about supporting the best player period.
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Prominence
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Re: true coco believer

Post by Prominence » 10 Jan 2012, 06:39

Removed due to trolling
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Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
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Re: true coco believer

Post by Saktoth » 10 Jan 2012, 07:06

Those are some very pretty opinions you got there, why don't you go take them somewhere else where people care to hear them?

The real teamgame is where everyone resigns and gives all their units to the best player. The real teamgame is a 1v1. So play 1v1, teamgames are only ever just for fun due to this very basic reason.
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smoth
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Re: true coco believer

Post by smoth » 10 Jan 2012, 14:41

Prominence wrote:The true teamgame is about supporting the best player period.
nope
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luckywaldo7
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Re: true coco believer

Post by luckywaldo7 » 10 Jan 2012, 15:57

Prominence wrote:
luckywaldo7 wrote:Scifi was pretty much spot on.
Prominence wrote:the true team game is about supporting the best player, not about teammates and all other nonsense. If best player succeeds, the team wins, and rest of teammates are just placeholders
You will find most if not all the highest ranked ZK players disagree, and I dare you to prove yourself more skillful.
The teamgame your talking about is an ideal teamgame situation where teammates have perfectly equal skill, which never happened and never will happen. Everyone is inherently different so as their skill.

In realistic situation all investments should be made towards the best player. Just like in real war, all investment is made toward the best commander who can save countless lives of soldiers, citizens, and his lieutenants. So it isn't a single player that carries the team but a few.

I had BA games where all my teammates died, yet I won those games because I asked them spawn far away from me, hence I was able to acquire 2 to 3 more metal spots. That 2 to 3 metal spot investment to the best player made all the difference to the outcome of the war. It doesn't matter how many pawns I discard or lose, all that matter is the best player.

The true teamgame is about supporting the best player period.
Lol, 2 to 3 extra metal spots? What do you play, 8v8 DSD? Pretty much that game is just a battle between the best player of each team in the basin. And the best you usually ask from your team is just to spam in units toward the center to help.

With that limited experience it is no wonder you have such a destructive and condescending attitude toward teammates.
Saktoth wrote:The real teamgame is where everyone resigns and gives all their units to the best player. The real teamgame is a 1v1. So play 1v1, teamgames are only ever just for fun due to this very basic reason.
Actually, most games now I find I am happy to have the micro resources of a few of my teammates. Maybe I am just getting weak in my old age. ;D

Also, team games don't need to be huge random pub games. Hopefully, Licho's player juggler will bring out the smaller team games with more evened skill levels.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: true coco believer

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 10 Jan 2012, 17:45

actually, planetwars has a tendency to consistently place you on the same side as people in your faction. I find myself developing respect and trust for a number of players now because as we play alongside eachother frequently and gain a good idea of eachothers capabilities.
There is also the clan system, and while my clan contains tandstickor (super pro) and logik (super noob), all are capable coordinating and working as a team.

as a result, many of my ZK team games are placing me with at least one player I trust and try to start next to. two players working together in close proximity will defeat two disorganised players every time, and thus we move foward.

I love the coop btw, because for all the games it causes my team to lose (when that noob on 1 mex hoovers 20% of the teams resources to build a 3rd doomsday in his base) it also allows new heights of clever play and rushes.
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albator
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Re: true coco believer

Post by albator » 10 Jan 2012, 18:52

smoth wrote:I gotta ask, wtf does coco mean? I keep thinking this is a conan o'brien thread.
Image
In France, we just call Communiste (communist in english) a CoCo cause that is funny to say and also all communism stuff failed: USSR did not use communist plan for stuff that really matter like A/C R&D, that is for a reason: this is the same here: good player get limitated by that crap while noob can feed while doing nothing
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Google_Frog
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Re: true coco believer

Post by Google_Frog » 11 Jan 2012, 08:37

All I see is complaints from forum whiners that have never played.
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