Unlocks and experienced players - Page 2

Unlocks and experienced players

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hoijui
Former Engine Dev
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Joined: 22 Sep 2007, 09:51

Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by hoijui »

i also dislike unlocks in general, but your own example defeats your argumentation.
as he said, after ~2h, you are already up to 90% unlockedness, and i consider a day of practice to be more then 2h of playtime.
you may also remember that even these 55% initial unlocked units are more in pure numbers, versatility and more complex to use right then 100% of most any other RTS.

The very fundamental and important difference with ZK unlocks compared to others is, that in ZK, it is done to try to make learning the game easier for noobs, while in other games (commercial ones), it is done to make the player addicted without even a theoretical benefit for him.

unlocks make ZK an other WoW about as much as a black guy as president of the US (auto-)saves the world. Don't look only at the superficial.
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Cheesecan
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by Cheesecan »

2 hours? OP says 90 games. If 2 hours then w/e, that's such a short time I don't think people will notice it.
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sillynanny
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by sillynanny »

luckywaldo7 wrote:people with previous CA experience have no need for unlocks.
What does this mean? Are they such good players they don't ever need the extra units?
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KingRaptor
Zero-K Developer
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by KingRaptor »

All facs (not counting specops con) for 90% of units is <= 10 large team games (1v1 and smaller games give more XP, so even faster; 5-6 1v1s should be about enough).
90 large team games is actually about right for 100% units, but bear in mind that nearly two-thirds of this is stuff you should not ever need in a normal game, like Starlight and Detriment - and for "silly games" (i.e. FFAs) that need them, you can just turn the modoption off.

Two hours may actually be a bit of a lowball estimate for 90% of units, it's probably closer to 3 if the team sizes aren't too small and games take ~30 minutes. Still less than a day.

also hoijui's analogy is awesome
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Pxtl
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by Pxtl »

The problem is that while you're grinding through that, other players with more time on their hands are buying comm upgrades. So you're like "yay, I have access to most of the units" and some guy walks over and tears your crap apart with a super-sniper-comm.
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Godde
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by Godde »

Pxtl wrote:The problem is that while you're grinding through that, other players with more time on their hands are buying comm upgrades. So you're like "yay, I have access to most of the units" and some guy walks over and tears your crap apart with a super-sniper-comm.

Com upgrades are rather expensive. For the same cost you can usually get units with the same abilities as the comupgrade. The greatest advantages of comupgrades is that you have the option to get a stronger com right where it is without any need for extra buildpower. In order to counter coms you can use a bunch of units or just brute force in many situations. Just keep an eye on what modules the enemy com got so you don't send an inferior force against the com and loses them all.
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sillynanny
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by sillynanny »

Godde wrote:Just keep an eye on what modules the enemy com got so you don't send an inferior force against the com and loses them all.
Unfortunately the enemy com got modules I can't use so I have no idea of their strength, limits, area of effect, range, etc...

Which is precisely why unlocks suck.
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Godde
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by Godde »

sillynanny wrote:
Godde wrote:Just keep an eye on what modules the enemy com got so you don't send an inferior force against the com and loses them all.
Unfortunately the enemy com got modules I can't use so I have no idea of their strength, limits, area of effect, range, etc...

Which is precisely why unlocks suck.
You can see the hitpoints, DPS of weapons, range of weapons ingame. You can get alot of information by just checking the ingame stats when you mouseover a unit and press space. You can still read about them on the Zero-K website.
I don't see how that is different from all the redundant units in BA where you have to keep track of all different econ structures, different types of tanks that are light, medium, heavy, what micro you need to use on different units to counter enemy units, arm vs core, etc, etc.
Its a part of knowing the game simply put.
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knorke
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by knorke »

so unlocking everything takes somewhere between 2 hours and 90 games :roll:
Maybe get some facts.

The website should probally be updated, it talks about this "innovative flat tech tree" and stuff like:
Every conceivable weapon and tool at your disposal. The wide diversity of choices available results in seemingly limitless tactical and strategic options constrained only by your own imagination.
All factories and structures can be built at any time with no prerequisites.
Noob reads all that, then ingame notices "trololo unlocks needed."

on commanders:
wasnt originally the idea to have commanders weaker and less one-man-army? And to have the game more streamlined in general?
Now suddendly there are all these modules and stuff :shock:
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sillynanny
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by sillynanny »

Godde wrote: I don't see how that is different from all the redundant units in BA where you have to keep track of all different econ structures, different types of tanks that are light, medium, heavy, what micro you need to use on different units to counter enemy units, arm vs core, etc, etc.
Its a part of knowing the game simply put.
I did not make BA so I do not speak for it. However, the way I keep track of the many BA units, what they do, etc, is by making them, using them, losing them and doing better next time. You seriously are telling me to learn a unit's range by looking at an integer in a tooltip? Without scale? When you are saying something like that, trust me, you are in the wrong. If I wanted to play Excel, I'd get back to work.

Ultimately this all boils down to this:
You made a game.
You made a tutorial, which is unlocks.
Your tutorial is keeping players away from your game.
You keep the tutorial in the game with handwavy arguments about call of duty and BA, the first of which is not an RTS and the second of which does not have unlocks.
Your little tutorial mechanism provides easy wins for you and your friends.
Profit!
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yanom
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by yanom »

Cheesecan wrote:I'm pretty sure there are plenty of experienced RTS gamers who could whoop most ZK players with just a day of practice. Don't force people into things like unlocks.
amen. unlock system is bad.
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CarRepairer
Cursed Zero-K Developer
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by CarRepairer »

Image

Moving on...
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Cheesecan
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by Cheesecan »

sillynanny: You can hover over a unit and hold shift to see their range.

The problem with unlocks is that they affect multiplayer. In multiplayer skill and luck should be the only things that determine outcome. Otherwise what you have is some kind of RPG where you're collecting bonuses. Warcraft 3 used this in a clever way where you could level your heroes during a match. But having things transfer between matches..well that is a kind of unfairness that goes against the spirit of RTS.
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sillynanny
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by sillynanny »

Lol have you ever heard correlation is not causation?

Look we have explained why unlocks is bad. The best reply I got was ''BA has many units too!''. It directly contradicts the text someone was kind enough to copy from your homepage and paste here for you to see. You see, nothing in life will ever get as easy and obvious as this.

You can cure the blind, but not the willingly blind.

As you say, Moving on.
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sillynanny
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by sillynanny »

Cheesecan wrote:sillynanny: You can hover over a unit and hold shift to see their range.
If you have line of sight.
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Pxtl
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Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by Pxtl »

Godde wrote:
Pxtl wrote:The problem is that while you're grinding through that, other players with more time on their hands are buying comm upgrades. So you're like "yay, I have access to most of the units" and some guy walks over and tears your crap apart with a super-sniper-comm.

Com upgrades are rather expensive. For the same cost you can usually get units with the same abilities as the comupgrade. The greatest advantages of comupgrades is that you have the option to get a stronger com right where it is without any need for extra buildpower. In order to counter coms you can use a bunch of units or just brute force in many situations. Just keep an eye on what modules the enemy com got so you don't send an inferior force against the com and loses them all.
Not the same, because normally artillery units or shield generators are slow and easy to kill if you can get into firing range with them. Having all those powers bundled into a single god-unit means you can't just kill the weak-spot because comms don't *have* a weak spot.
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Godde
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Joined: 29 Mar 2010, 17:54

Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by Godde »

sillynanny wrote:
Godde wrote: I don't see how that is different from all the redundant units in BA where you have to keep track of all different econ structures, different types of tanks that are light, medium, heavy, what micro you need to use on different units to counter enemy units, arm vs core, etc, etc.
Its a part of knowing the game simply put.
However, the way I keep track of the many BA units, what they do, etc, is by making them, using them, losing them and doing better next time.
If that is the way you learn how units work then you will have plenty of time to unlock all useful units in Zero-K before you've had time to test other units against real opponents, in real games, in real game situations and not just Speedmetal games. There are other ways of learning how to use units. Watching replays, seing other players use, reading their descriptions.
sillynanny wrote:You seriously are telling me to learn a unit's range by looking at an integer in a tooltip? Without scale?
Hold shift while mouse over friendly or enemy unit to see their range. I thought you played Spring.
Edit: Apperently you knew this. Makes me wonder why you didn't think about that before you wrote this.
Another thing that had been brought up for discussion is to make modules visible on the com(if someone is actually gonna take the time to code it). That way a player could simply look on the enemy commander if they could recognize the modules and weapons to see the strength of the enemy commander. You are not against customizable units, now are you?
sillynanny wrote:Your tutorial is keeping players away from your game.
Apperently you and a few others are disliking it but in general people are happy about it and seems to play more in order to unlock stuff. I disliked it in the beginning aswell but most stuff can be unlocked really fast and it makes you think about why you are unlocking new units rather than just testing them out in games where your team might suffer from it.
sillynanny wrote:
Cheesecan wrote:sillynanny: You can hover over a unit and hold shift to see their range.
If you have line of sight.
Actually you only need to have spotted the unit and keep it in radar covarage and press Space+click to see their unit stats.
Last edited by Godde on 08 Jun 2011, 18:57, edited 2 times in total.
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luckywaldo7
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Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by luckywaldo7 »

yanom wrote:
Cheesecan wrote:I'm pretty sure there are plenty of experienced RTS gamers who could whoop most ZK players with just a day of practice. Don't force people into things like unlocks.
amen. unlock system is bad.
Then they should come to the Oxygen autohost. 1v1, everything unlocked, and latest version. If you ask me around the right time of day I'll play some games with you.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by Google_Frog »

I dislike locks too but was outvoted. Mainly Licho made a few arguments along the lines of "most people will like it". I'm not sure if the number of people that dismiss the game because of this is worth the slight player retention due to addictable people.

The graphs do show an increase in players over the period but other things changed during that time as well.

Looks like noone knows how long it takes to unlock stuff so I will write it here. I had a hand in designing it so it takes little time to unlock the things that are used in most games.

From a few samples and calculation the average XP/game seems to be 90-100. The raw equation says you get 186xp on average for a 1v1, 120xp for a 3v3 and 82.5xp for a 6v6 (this is on average with equal ELO and averaged between win and lose).

The locked Factories:
  • Jumpjet/Specialist Plant
  • Athena
  • Heavy Tank Factory
  • Airplane Plant
  • Shield Bot Factory
Take 900xp total. These things are completely stupid to lock so seem to be there for the apparent tutorial bonus thing.

Here is a random bunch of units that KingRaptor decided were "for lolz" so locked. I am undecided as to whether this set of random units or the factories are the stupidest thing to lock.
  • Krow
  • Goliath
  • Licho
  • Scythe
  • Panther
  • Black Dawn
  • Dominatrix
  • Newton
Anyway they cost 1600xp total which brings the total number of games to play for a decent unit set up to 25.

These units heavy defence things are locked to prevent noobs from rushing them in their base. I am not sure how well this works as I have seen people spam HLT instead. Also it may give people the impression that these are super good and should be built all the time or that they are utterly useless, neither or which is true.
  • Screamer
  • Annihilator
  • Doomsday Machine
  • Big Bertha
  • Behemoth
  • Silencer
1800xp to unlock (4300 total now). I have been in a game where I did not have Screamer and thought I needed it at the time. But hopefully with these units you should be able to get an ally to build one if it is really required. Although the Nuke lock is a big pain because against some teams you could completely ignore the entire antinuke game.

Then finally there is this set of super expensive stuff. It could completely ruin a FFA if this stuff is disabled for anyone (as with everything) as FFA is more about diverse, expensive and stealthy options to victory. If playing a FFA demand that the unlock system is disabled.
  • Bantha
  • Jugglenaut
  • Detriment
  • Singularity Reactor
  • Starlight
  • Disco Rave Party
This lot costs 4150xp.

So, all the most common stuff is availible after 25 games but the super massive stuff takes 82 games. Although if you are a super RTS player who could beat everyone after a day of playing you would likely be playing 1v1s with the unlocks modoption turned off. Your average XP gain would be around 200/game because the chance to win is taken into account with XP and your initial elo of 1500 would be far too low for your skill.

Anyway given the speed of the system I think the initial repulsion that prevents a player from trying the game is more of a worry than someone becoming disheartened because they don't see themselves gaining the units any time soon.

In short my dislike for locked units is counterbalanced by the very short time it takes to gain access to them. My worry is that people that dislike locks will not stick around for long enough to discover how inconsequential the system is.



Commander modules are a whole different story. In theory they are suppose to have unit counterparts that are better for cost but I don't think it is currently implemented that way. In theory this system is ok because while more XP gives you more commander choices it does not give you more ingame choice. With about 1000xp you should be able to outfit a commander up to level 2. Commanders should not be so powerful that they have a massive impact on the past that point. Most modules at the start of the game should work well (if not there would be pregame RPS).
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Godde
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Joined: 29 Mar 2010, 17:54

Re: Unlocks and experienced players

Post by Godde »

Cheesecan wrote: Otherwise what you have is some kind of RPG where you're collecting bonuses. Warcraft 3 used this in a clever way where you could level your heroes during a match. But having things transfer between matches..well that is a kind of unfairness that goes against the spirit of RTS.
Labeling experience and unlocks as bonuses and comparing it to heroes leveling up in WC3 is quite a bad comparison. A level 2 bladedemon in WC3 is simply better than a level 1 bladedemon. In Zero-K everything have its costs to use.
Choosing between a few com settups at start usually doesn't matter more than what factory you choose. Now having the option to choose might be a great advantage but com setups usually don't play that much role and you can checkup the enemy com setups on their homepages http://zero-k.info/Users/[UCS]Jasper That might be taking it too far though :P

It's almost like a new newbtrap(although there are alot of experienced players doing so) as players can do nothing but upgrading their coms for several thousand metal getting killed by Precision bombers, Spies and Fleas or Skuttles for example.
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