Future Planetwars Windows only

[hoijui]

Licho once told me, that if i would write it in Java, he would use it. back then, i though about it, but... really no time for it. but maybe if someone else would want to do it, that could still be an option.
The reason he does not want to use other technologies is, cause it would cost him too much time (that is how i remember it at least).

[Cremuss]

<troll>
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7092/w ... sedtob.jpg
</troll>

More and more stuff for spring being windows only. This is really scary

Just say you need linux devs to some linux players/dev communities and I'm sure you'll get some devs..

We spent months making lobby linux compatible to get what - 2 users and no maintainers for linux.

aahhh... epic fail . Considering the popularity of Spring in the different linux communities, I seriously doubt you have only 2 users
Anyway it's not the point. Thank you for giving up on us, we were glad ton play spring on linux but now we have to leave because we can't no longer play it..
You always said that you need more players, bla bla, but is that how you thank us for playing it ?
Spring engine is cross-plateform. It's soooo stupid to use it and make a game windows only just because you choose the "awesomeness" of .NET ..

ahh. it annoys me a bit... hum a lot..

[Agon]

Did you set your troll tags wrong?

[Licho]

Simply put, .NET makes our work many times easier than other technology. I would never try to make lobby in C++ or even in Java due to extra workload.

Don't blame me that I don't intend to slave for free so that <1% of PC users can access it.

Thats not effective way to spend time if we want more players.

Time is better spent improving stuff for .NET windows even if it means that 1% are left out. There is springlobby alternative for them anyway.

I made numerous posts asking for help with mono lobby- for testers etc .. nothing..

It was huge mistake to even attempt it, it cost us months of time - we could have working PW3 by now instead.

If there is demand, our code is open source, anyone can attempt to port it or make other backend, i will provide assistance but i wont code and test on linux anymore.

[hoijui]

stop saying 1%. that is clearly not true. the 20-30% are much more realistic.

the problem with Java (and some other not C# stuff that could have been an alternative) was, that licho & quantum did/do not know it as good as C# (-> more learning, frustration, time). in addition to that, what they have now is C#, and switching technology means starting from scratch (except relatively independent projects, but also there it always means additional work).
These are all good reasons, and it is surely not anyone else's right to tell them to change this.

In general java seems to get extra a lot of hate in this community. partly of which may come from AFLobby, which surely can not be seen as a typical java application, and partly because of people having no clue about java, or knowledge that is based on user level perception of java apps in 1997. I can guarantee you that a good java dev today could make a ZKLobby equivalent in no more time then it took Licho to do it in C#.
... which brings us to the 3rd problem of java (in this community): all good java devs are capitalistic pigs, which would not care writing stuff for open source, except they have to for work (which excludes spring of course).
If anyone that is good in java would want to make a serious attempt at something in java, i would sure be willing to help with problems related to communication with the engine/unitsync and the like. i already have a quite good cross-platform way of abstracting unitsync, we have a lobby server in java, a J2ME compatible protocol implementation and a base project for a lobby, which may be used as reference.
if you do not have a few years experience in writing Java GUI apps though, i would not recommend to try it.

[Licho]

Afaik Tobi does Java too and he is not a capitalistic pig :)

And 1% is not from my head hoijui - wiki says 1% of PC users use Linux. I know that in Spring community its much more.

[Agon]

<troll>Java is so slow and ugly and so much like C#</troll>

I think he refers to the Spring Community which by the way counts, not all PC users. One of the main selling points of Spring is that it runs under Linux.

Anyway, doesn't seem we will get a PW2 for none Windows users. Which is a shame but well I don't care about Windows users, too :D

[Licho]

I don't think that community "counts". Community does not reflect market. We seek to increase player base and this increase comes from PC users.

The fact that we have large proportion of Linux users might indicate that something is very very wrong with the game (too hard to use - Linux users more skilled and tolerant to complex setup procedures).

Though potential could be higher than 1% because of relative rarity of games for Linux. Best way to check would be to get stats from some friendly linux compatible modern game like HoN.

[hoijui]

.. or, as was already said here, and is much, much, much more likely, it is cause we support linux, unlike... every other comparable RTS. Thus, the market for spring is not one with 1% linux users.

[Neddie]

I am considerably less likely to participate in the future rounds of Planet Wars if it does not support Linux. In fact, I haven't been playing ZK primarily because I can not get the current version through rapid.

There are short term costs to any move for expansion, but abandoning a significant portion of your current community in hopes of obtaining new users elsewhere is a similarly significant risk. I feel this is something ZK developers have done a number of times without seeing the desired benefits.

C# is a language Licho is comfortable with, and you can expect coders to work with the languages they are most comfortable with when possible. I don't think the arguments over the alternative languages themselves are very useful - if somebody is willing to code it in another language which is cross-platform with the same investment, resulting in the same quality of product, then that is a superior alternative worth discussing.

[==Troy==]

Afaik Tobi does Java too and he is not a capitalistic pig :)

And 1% is not from my head hoijui - wiki says 1% of PC users use Linux. I know that in Spring community its much more.

50% of the Windows users are home wifes who will _never_ even look at your game.

Using wiki values for your argument of the influx of spring players from linux, is like taking the tide into account when you need to walk 10m to your neighbour.

Take the correct data. I recall BD telling me that spring lobby has (I can be wrong with the values) ~70% of the spring users and ~25% of the SL users were on linux.

This basically means that you are giving up on 1 quarter of your potential userbase.


Edit : since when did wiki become a source of accurate data?

[Licho]

Nah it means some 20% of CURRENT player base :)
Which is irrelevant in the long term because it recycles anyway.

Anyway, if you so desire it, get busy and go coding. Make GUI which does what PW2 prototype did in silverlight and its set.

I care more about finishing the project.

[jeykey]

deleted, it's Christmas time

[Agon]

...
Anyway, if you so desire it, get busy and go coding. Make GUI which does what PW2 prototype did in silverlight and its set.
...

To do so we would need an API to communicate with....

[Licho]

It already exists, check source codes there is planetwars webservice.

Service runs here
http://planet-wars.eu/planetwarsservice.svc

[tizbac]

Windows users are less likely to play spring cause they have a lot of games that spread using paid reviews and so on , so you have to target linux mostly.

A windows user searches for a "Windows RTS" and gets before spring for example Age of empires , age of mythology , empire earth .... 100 results and at the end spring , instead a linux user searching for an rts will get "Battle for wesnoth , Warzone 2100 , Spring "

I've found it while searching some good rts for linux , otherwise i'd never find spring

[Agon]

I've found it while searching some good rts for linux , otherwise i'd never find spring

True that. I imagine without Springs Linux compatibility, Spring would no longer be developed or even exist.

@Licho:
http://planet-wars.eu/planetwarsservice.svc that doesn't help at all.

To be honest, I don't care anymore. It seems to me that you don't really care as well.
I offered some developing time, that's it.
The time is better spend elsewhere, where it is welcome.

[very_bad_soldier]

They need something like canvas in Html5, Flash or Silverlight to draw the game-universe.

Yeah, but there is an addon for it (as there is for nearly all stuff I needed in the past):
http://vaadin.com/directory#addon/canvaswidget
I cant say how great it is cause I never used it myself, it just proves that its possible.

And whatever you are missing else with it, it will IMO be easier to extend an exisiting framework (e.g. vaadin) or make an addon than starting totally from scratch so you would have to implement every single piece yourself.

Sad to hear you lost interest, but it is of course your decision. Merry Xmas though!

PS.
There is also a nice demo available:
http://hezamu.virtuallypreinstalled.com/WidgetTest

[Licho]

Agon, how does existing backend not help at all - it means only GUI needs to be done.
It IS intimidating project and I would not help with GUI directly.

But if there is real interest from people who are able to code such thing themselves I can provide full assistance (explanation about logic and how backend works).

VBS: merry christmas! :)

I also believe that if you want to make it in HTML5 it's best to use some canvas wrapper due to various compatibility issues between browsers and need to implement lots of "controls", visual primitives and other low level things.

[knorke]

actually i thought mission page, map select screen and planetwars was made as web thingy for the very reason of multiple os support (?)

anyway, it will still be possible for linux players to just play in the pw battles by joining the the battlerroom right? They would "only" miss out on the fleets metagame, unit buying and whatever else is planned. ie unit buying could be done by lobby bot? like !buy 5 spherebot