Starting builds not capping mexes

Starting builds not capping mexes

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Edible
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Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Edible » 16 Jul 2010, 05:34

This is somewhat related to the other thread regarding metal at start, but I figured it needed a new thread to properly discuss.

Recently a trend has emerged of players not making mexes at the start (or at all) and essentially leeching off their teams communism for early rushes.

Is this intended / desired, if not is there any plans for changes to deal to it?
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Saktoth
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Saktoth » 16 Jul 2010, 06:44

Ahh, another perfectly sensible idea designed to enhance and increase team efficiency and cooperation ruined by selfish gits.

If a player asks beforehand and they cooperate to do so, yes thats fine. If its a map thats slightly too small for player count and the last player doesnt have a good start spot, then yes, more than anything, it was designed for this. If its a noob who doesnt know what they are doing, thats regrettable but inevitable (though sadly, communism does remove that immediate feedback between mexes and resources, and sort of makes players confounded by their own success and learn slower, but thats team games for you).

If a player starts with 3 metal spots, but uses that metal on flash instead of mexes, while his team languishes, then no. He is letting down his entire team and only getting 75% of his potential metal in a 4v4, 66% in a 3v3, 80% in a 5v5. We really dont want this to happen. I hope we dont have to give you 3 free mexes as well as a free fac. Thats becoming rather proscriptive isnt it.

Replay(s)? Has anyone else seen this?
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JohannesH
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by JohannesH » 16 Jul 2010, 12:22

Choose more carefully who you play with, teaming up with randoms is mostly frustrating in any case.
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hoijui
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by hoijui » 16 Jul 2010, 12:30

what if you had to full fill some tests for you'd be accepted into the communistic party?
say, serve your comrades well for 3 games, sharing good, early metal...

yeah i know it would be way to complex to implement for such a small gain, but i liked the idea.
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Edible
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Edible » 16 Jul 2010, 14:19

@JohannesH, That advice would be fairly good if CA had more than one server with people at one time.

@Sak, myself and google had a game in which a teammate (iirc [piro]uette) made no mexes, and just spammed eggs, and defended his choice, I dont have replay on this boot but I can get it later if really needed.

Piro as a clan seem to almost entirely do this due to there being apparently something broken in commanders (not sure what they mean).

I agree that it is good on small maps or if the team is warned or many other fine circumstances, but the issue is it happening in standard ~4v4 games on normal maps (dsd, tabula all that kind).
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luckywaldo7
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by luckywaldo7 » 16 Jul 2010, 14:56

o/

Welcome to my side Edible :)
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Saktoth
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Saktoth » 16 Jul 2010, 15:57

If the commander or somesuch is broken, thats not players being jerks, thats a larger bug.

Communism has its problems, but there are plenty of ways to grief. As long as players dont start going 'nah dude its a really good strat' constantly and its only griefers, noobs, and uncooperative douchebags who do this then its okay (because they will be useless, one way or another, anyway).
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Pxtl
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Pxtl » 16 Jul 2010, 16:07

Yup. BA has guys who hide in the back and tech to Krog, CA has guys that don't cap mexes and instead just spam units. Same book, different page.

Although a small (10-20%) private extraction from mexes would be nice to encourage individual mex building.
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CarRepairer
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by CarRepairer » 16 Jul 2010, 20:00

Pxtl wrote:Yup. BA has guys who hide in the back and tech to Krog, CA has guys that don't cap mexes and instead just spam units. Same book, different page.

Although a small (10-20%) private extraction from mexes would be nice to encourage individual mex building.
I am for the small private benefit, but perhaps Licho or Googlefrog might have reason against it.

For newcomers:
Communism was born out of necessity due to the overdrive system. With overdrive, a team would be benefited by distributing the mexes to players with better energy output so they can overdrive more efficiently. This is an unwanted game mechanic as it adds annoying math to the economy, and nearly guarantees that one team has a benefit over another by sheer luck that their mexes are accidentally distributed more efficiently than their enemies. This could be solved by creating a widget to calculate and alert players of how to best distribute mexes to each player, but this is of course would be a boring element to add to the game. Overdrive's purpose was to eliminate what some people consider a boring aspect of economy management, i.e. building metal maker farms at just the right amount and running widgets to manage them for you. No point in going back to that.
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Mav
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Mav » 16 Jul 2010, 20:11

Saktoth wrote:Communism has its problems...
Just like real life, right?

From what I've read this is one of the big reasons communism has consistently failed on a micro-level. If the system is set up so that slackers still get paid, what's the advantage to working hard?

What if you made it so that shared metal/energy is somehow proportional to the number of mexes you own? Or energy structures? Or maybe related to raw econ (pre-communism)?
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Pxtl
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Pxtl » 16 Jul 2010, 20:12

Well, if the "private" part isn't overdrivable, then it doesn't conflict with the shared overdrive economy.
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JohannesH
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by JohannesH » 16 Jul 2010, 20:15

Pxtl wrote:Although a small (10-20%) private extraction from mexes would be nice to encourage individual mex building.
I dont like this at all. If I'm playing seriously with good teammates, then mexes will get built in any case if they're worth building at the time. If I'm playing a pub game with randoms it seems like a cool idea that others can build mexes and give m for me.
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Neddie
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Neddie » 16 Jul 2010, 20:17

Mav wrote: From what I've read this is one of the big reasons communism has consistently failed on a micro-level. If the system is set up so that slackers still get paid, what's the advantage to working hard?
Well, your entire team will still benefit from your work, just simply not as much as it might have with more competent members. This ties into why I seldom play CA now that most of the people I enjoy working with are either dormant or playing with people I don't enjoy playing with - I too find it hard to get motivated to try when playing with people who do not.
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Baracus
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Baracus » 17 Jul 2010, 01:19

It seems to work if certain players build mexes and other players build units.
If you do not understand this, do not directly acuse people of being egoistic ("selfish gits"), try to understand their way of playing.
In a team everyone can do the same, or each player can forfill a different task.
(+ yeah it would be nice if mexes would get partially shared to encourage building them)
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Saktoth
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Saktoth » 17 Jul 2010, 03:51

Baracus wrote:do not directly acuse people of being egoistic ("selfish gits"), try to understand their way of playing.
Saktoth wrote:If a player asks beforehand and they cooperate to do so, yes thats fine.
If you communicate beforehand on the roles everyone is meant to be playing, great, communism is meant to foster that. This comment isnt directed at you.

However, if you seriously think its okay to go 'nah dude its a valid strat its just a different playstyle' because you think communism is permission to leech off the economy of your allies, then you need to stop it right now. This is simply unacceptable to do without the consent of your team, and you are very unlikely to get a team you dont know to consent to something like that.

If there is a free spot with 3 starting mexes and you arent starting there and capping them, your team loses a large portion of its starting income.
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Edible
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Edible » 17 Jul 2010, 04:46

Oh sak I am including people starting on 3 mex spots and never making the mexes.

Image

As far as it having real flaws of communism go, this is somewhat unrelated as the players within a team are not competing, if you want a metaphor, use distribution of funds within a company.
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Saktoth
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Saktoth » 17 Jul 2010, 07:57

Well if he rushed something before mex, thats kind of newbish but ok (Though LLT before mex? Wtf, really?) but if he then made something -after- the egg and -still- hadnt made mexes thats getting really bad.

Anyway, who is this so we can point fingers and make allegations?
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Edible
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Edible » 17 Jul 2010, 08:49

Fyi that was the 3rd (maybe 4th) egg out.

It was [PIRO]uette if you must know.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by Google_Frog » 17 Jul 2010, 16:04

The way I see it the player is either a noob or trolling. If the team makes it clear the player not making the easy to grab mexes is letting the team down the player is intentionally not trying which ruins the game for others.

If a player is going to try something extreme they should tell the team to see if the team agrees or has any suggestions. It also allows the other members to plan around it. Maybe we can get some teamwork going.

If Edible's screenshot is a screenshot of a game I played in(on the left) the first 2 eggs where really effective though the next few where a waste. I'm pointing out that rushes like this can work though I agree going beyond a minute without mexes is pretty bad. Taking those few mexes is such little work.
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SirMaverick
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Re: Starting builds not capping mexes

Post by SirMaverick » 17 Jul 2010, 16:24

Edible wrote:Recently a trend has emerged of players not making mexes at the start (or at all) and essentially leeching off their teams communism for early rushes.
What Saktoth said.
Mav wrote:If the system is set up so that slackers still get paid, what's the advantage to working hard?
If you don't want to play team games, don't play them. There are still ffas and 1v1s. There you will find your advantage that's solely based on your hard work and not on team cooperation.
Communism mode enforces team cooperation much more. Metal is shared equally so everyone is an equal part in the game. In such a situation the lack of team cooperation and team work has more influence than in games without communism mode. (e.g. in a game without communism mode no one cares about a player that porcs on a single mex)
What if you made it so that shared metal/energy is somehow proportional to the number of mexes you own?
Communism off is not an option.
Or energy structures? Or maybe related to raw econ (pre-communism)?
Well, you just need one procer that spams eco and get's most eco. Doesn't help you and your hard work at front where you build combat units instead of eco.

Every system has flaws. The current shared metal eco has as far as I can see only one: bad egoistic players that found their way into a team game where they don't really belong. You can either teach (yes there are new players from time to time) them, kick them or don't join a game full of such players in the first place. Nobody forces you to play with them.
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