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Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 00:00
by Beherith
Gota, congrats on completely missing cars point about his mapping and balance.
Also, stop insulting the content devs in your posts.

Do NOT think that others working on stuff other than what you think is good is a waste of time.

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 00:33
by zwzsg
For once that I agree with Gota, he's getting mod-reprimanded. :?

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 00:34
by Gota
I wrote its a waste of time if their goal is to bring in more players only since they have been doing this for the past several years,changing gameplay trying to tweak it..the point is that newbies don't care,don't understand these differences and thus its not what brings them in.
What was car's point?i thought his point was that balance,gameplay and stability are above everything and that people dont like trying new things.

Also,its not me who thinks its good its just common sense,a newbie needs to play the game for a year to understand these small ,gameplay nuances while presentation ease of use and visuals is something he experiences right away and what effects his decision whether to keep playing or not the most(in spring's case its often if the newbie is gonna play at all).

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 04:28
by maackey
The goal wasn't primarily to bring in more players. It was just an idea that I had that would be fun to try out.

I agree with Gota that Spring needs to be more easily accessible to newbies, and more streamlined. I think SD is a nice step in this regard, as it does a lot of things automatically for the player. However I also think that balance is important; newbies might not care about balance at first, but nobody stays a newbie forever. Balance is important to *keep* people playing.

Edit: another commander base type:
modcom3.png
modcom3.png (47.59 KiB) Viewed 1722 times

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 05:19
by CarRepairer
maackey wrote:The goal wasn't primarily to bring in more players. It was just an idea that I had that would be fun to try out.

I agree with Gota that Spring needs to be more easily accessible to newbies, and more streamlined. I think SD is a nice step in this regard, as it does a lot of things automatically for the player. However I also think that balance is important; newbies might not care about balance at first, but nobody stays a newbie forever. Balance is important to *keep* people playing.
Well put. We can all agree that we would love a game where you can progress and build up some sort of character to call your own. Who doesn't like that? It's the approach that matters.

We can have the best of both worlds. Rewards for playing often and/or playing well, in the form of a personalized commander, or the meta game of planetwars. While the battles themselves will always be based on the skill of the players.

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 13:46
by Gota
Different skins and hats?XD

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 16:25
by maackey
Yes, different skins will be planned for various contributers, and I think Clan-Hats would be a nice addition as well.

cowboy, party, top hats would be fun, likewise sombrero's, a ladies wig, maybe some other stuff. [1uP] will most likely have a mushroom hat :P

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 18:38
by Acidd_UK
I want a penis-commander!

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 18 Jun 2010, 22:05
by KaiserJ
so how is this going to be set up (what parts will you be able to change)

will i be able for instance to pick the arms from the first commander pic for the body of the second?

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 19 Jun 2010, 03:20
by maackey
What we've got so far (and it is still a very fluid work in progress) is 3 different types of commanders.
One static (for that extra boost of economy and basebuilding)
one offensive (rambo style, good guns)
and one stealthy (emp, capture, teleport); a special ops if you will.
Mobile commanders:
Image

The parts that you will be able to change are the weapons and abilities -- which will be reflected on the model of the unit. (as of yet unmade; the list of upgrades is still being finalized) I would love to have a large array of commander models and styles, but I can only do so much. So for right now its just the three different bases with the many different upgrade parts.

BTW the banners are special (purely visual) bonuses for contributers (code, donations, artistic assets), or for people who've unlocked certain achievements (won 10 decorated veteran awards, 50 emp wizard awards, etc...) nothing is finalized yet, and ideas are still welcome.

Acidd: :roll:

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 19 Jun 2010, 03:52
by Saktoth
Nice work Maackey.

Here is the old proposal for modular coms.

It gives you 3 slots so you can mix and match different abilities.

Banners over the shoulder will block too much of the view. I'd suggest something on the shoulders or projected onto the ground.
Licho wrote:Google, PW wasnt screwed up, it was working great! CA had most players and retained peak for 2-3 months! It only ended after engine upgrade which broke CA (desyncs 100% of time).

And people like you and Saktoth just ruined all my motivation to continue improving it and attempt to restart it.
As much as i still philosophically object to the notion of the outcome of CA games being determined by a much less complex and interesting meta-game (as you have admitted you agree with as well), i really regret doing that, Licho.

I'm sorry. We should be more positive about peoples endeavours. All effort is good effort, and its not like it destroyed CA- it took our playerbase, but the game was still there, underneath it all. We get too much flak to be giving eachother any.
Beherith wrote:This is absolutely amazing, especially since unlockable upgrades that still must be purchased ingame minimize the imbalance risk.

Visual only upgrades would rock as well.

In fact - both of these could be a valid incentive against smurfing.

If my boy could have a wizard hat...
If you make this model... :D

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 19 Jun 2010, 04:48
by Google_Frog
Licho wrote:I never wanted anything so dramatic.
Check how its done in LOL FFS!

No need for new mod, it wont change balance.
maackey wrote:Lets screw up balance!
Are you planning on screwing balance or not?

Maacky's comms are theoretically balanceable but as I said you've got to think through the repercussions or we just end up with months of silly games. (Silly is ok for a quick trial like it was in PW but it gets old fast)

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 19 Jun 2010, 11:39
by Licho
Ok I will try to describe plan.


There are 3 commander types you can pick at start game:
* "eco" - it's static structure
* "offense" - commander which can get offensive upgrades like cloak, one unit short range teleport etc
* "combat/defense" - commander with most brute force power, shield upgrade, phoenix module (survives after dead, can escape) etc

You pick which commander type you want before game begins ingame.
All 3 have similar basic power, static has more BP/better weapon and offense is slightly faster but weaker. They are not stronger than current commanders.

Each commander has 3 morphs - to level 1,2,3
They cost like 500, 1500 and 3000 (so total combined cost for T3 commander is 5000).
However, fresh newbies cant access those morphs yet.

To access morphs you must first select some upgrades for your t1,t2 and t3 versions of commanders.
You do this in lobby. After each game you get some points (more for winning, pw style) and using those points you can unlock upgrades for t1,t2,t3 commanders.
If you do morph will be enabled.

In lobby you will see 3 silhuetes of commander representing t1,t2,t3 and you can click body part to pick upgrade for it. (Independently for eco, offense, defense types).
You can upgrade body part of T2 only if same body part has some T1 upgrade.

T1 upgrades will be pretty weak, because their total ingame cost cant exceed 500 metal - so probably stuff like more radar range, faster legs vs more armor etc.

Upgrades should generally force you to make some choices and T3 upgrades can be fairly powerful (personal shield, dgun, teleport, slowdown aura etc).



In effect each player can have 3 different commander builds/"talent trees" (eco, offense,defense) with different upgrade sets. Ingame you can pick which one you want to play depending on your start location etc.

If you lose commander, you can still build new one of same type you picked at start (for 2500 or so) but its level 0 (must morph again).

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 19 Jun 2010, 11:50
by Licho
Technical implementation:

* server - holds data about personal upgrades and points tied to lobby accounts

* springie - talks with server, submits game results and prepares encrypted modoptions according to unlocked upgrades (to define t1,t2,t3 set for each commtype and each player)

* ingame models - with hideable pieces


* gadget - produces unitdefs for t1,t2,t3 according to modoptions and handles piece hiding/display for morphs and implements special abilities.
It also provides ingame selection screen which lets you pick eco,offense,defense.

* lobby - talks with server, displays shop, allows you to pick upgrades for body pieces of t1,t2,t3 versions of each commander type.

* web interface - backup shop interface for linux users, if they are nice to me

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 19 Jun 2010, 12:27
by Google_Frog
I dislike static commanders as maps can be slightly asymmetrical causing one side to have more mexes within static comm range than the other side. The rest of the static idea is nice but it has this huge flaw.

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 19 Jun 2010, 12:37
by Otherside
I think modular commanders would have little/no place in CA atm since mindless spam is usually the most effective way to win games. Focusing your attention on one unit isn't really worth the investment.

I always liked the idea though.

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 19 Jun 2010, 12:38
by Licho
Static commander can have bigger build range.
Also no problem to build lab + con. Imo its not drastrically significant issue


Oh also if we run into balance problems with some upgrades for body part at given level being simply better than other options, we could assign each upgrade unlock metal cost too.

And T1,T2,T3 morph costs would then be based on cost of upgraded pieces and not fixed value.

So like if your T1 only has radar dish for 70m and 15% more laser range for 200m you only pay 270m for the morph.

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 21 Jun 2010, 15:19
by Acidd_UK
I like this idea :-)

Obviously my previous comment still remains :-)

Re: Modular Commanders

Posted: 19 Jul 2010, 14:30
by Yogzototh
I like the general idea, but the whole licho's metagame suggestion totally turns me off. I mean, unlocking upgrades with points gained for winning games? Are we trying to be a room-based MMO-action game here or what the fuck is this bullshit? If we ever get PW running again, sure that would totally fit there, but not in the regular CA games, everyone should have equal abilities there.

Picking the kind of commander is pretty much like picking faction, except it doesnt matter anyway because the game isnt about com, so fine, if you want to code things that dont matter anyway, go ahead.

Being able to customize how your com looks is fine, except it reminds me of casual online games where everyone has those shitty customized avatar and buys clothes for it and other bullshit. I mean, yeh, it really is fine and is an improvement. Except it is nowhere near being a priority, but of course, CA is run by independent people who do whatever they want, and jump to different aspects of the game before they polish the previous one, leaving us with tons of half-baked features nobody is interested in finishing. But sure, if you want to do that, nobody stops you, lets have another one of those.