Mines

Mines

A dynamic game undergoing constant development and refinement, that attempts to balance playability with fresh and innovative features.

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FinDude
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Joined: 21 Mar 2010, 11:37

Mines

Post by FinDude » 03 May 2010, 10:10

I added some concept mines to concept engineer.
Either "/cheats" "/give concept_con" ("/nocost")
or "/cheats" "/give (log/nov)(area/heavy)mine" in current test version.


This thread is to serve as feedback gathering for balancing them.

List:

Demo: Napalm cluster mine; anti-swarm (logareamine)
Image
Gali: Anti-Armor super-heavy upward impulse mine (logheavymine)
Image

Hoplite: Cluster pipebomb mine;
effective especially against uphill climbing enemies. (novareamine)
Image
Bulldozer: Terraform trapping mine; when explodes,
deals some damage and terraforms a pit. (novheavymine)
Image

Known issues:

The mines dont block buildings,
and you can stack them on the same spot.

Gali impulse probably too strong, and causes stupidity with engine.
(The trown units sometimes start rotating around the 4th dimension and crap)

balance = ?
Last edited by FinDude on 05 May 2010, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
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Re: Mines

Post by Saktoth » 05 May 2010, 22:02

How did you do the vertical impulse thing?
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knorke
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Re: Mines

Post by knorke » 06 May 2010, 02:01

nice techdemo but i dont understand why there must be so many different mine types?
mines are a very special unit type anyway and to split this niche category even farther seems useless to me.
-> one type of mine should be enough, maybe make it somewhat "special" like the crawling mines in starcraft or make it have shrapnel or whatever but seeing a minelayer with a tons of options to me seems like "it was possible, so we did it"
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luckywaldo7
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Re: Mines

Post by luckywaldo7 » 06 May 2010, 04:02

I really like what you have done, each mine is interesting and fits the faction well.

Knorke, I think the basic idea is an anti-swarm and anti-heavy mine for each faction. Two isn't really too many options, and they are quite distinct from each other.

It would be nice to see something emo for nova, although maybe they already have too much emp stuff, dunno.
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FinDude
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Re: Mines

Post by FinDude » 06 May 2010, 09:57

luckywaldo7 wrote:It would be nice to see something emo for nova, although maybe they already have too much emp stuff, dunno.
EMO MINE; THE MINE THAT CUTS ITSELF

epic typo



In all seriousness, it would be pretty easy to make the Nova area mine
use emp clusters instead. But it would be hard to make them, err, proper.

Either they will emp everything from bulldogs to sumos, or won't be of any use against raiders either since they're so weak and you're using them as area denial.
Mixing emp and regular damage wouldnt work either, since raiders will regen partial damage fast.

And an emp mine would conflict with Ticks even more than Demo does with Roach.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Mines

Post by Google_Frog » 06 May 2010, 10:17

I don't like Bulldozer. Everyone knows the only name acceptable for a terraform mine is Pitfall. It has also taken a name reserved for my concept unit.

Pitfall needs it's initial x and z incremented by 8 as it currently doesn't snap to other terraform and buildings. It also needs a larger footprint, at least 16 larger, so that it is much harder to use it to violate Shraka Pyramids.

The weapons on the mines are nice but don't fix the core problem with con-constructed mines; they don't work. Cons take too long to get anywhere unexpected so mines are either UP or spammed everywhere for defence. My suggestion is think about how the weapons used for the mines could be integrated into a 1faction unit.
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zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
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Re: Mines

Post by zwzsg » 06 May 2010, 10:31

Maek a mine launcher long range cannon!

Like in Metal Fatigue you could build some sort of turret on your base and it would fire stick that would plant into the ground but were units.
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knorke
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Re: Mines

Post by knorke » 06 May 2010, 10:45

or something like the China Faction in C&C Generals:
buildings have an upgrade "mines" and if you buy it (per building) it places a ring of mines around the building.
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Beherith
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Re: Mines

Post by Beherith » 06 May 2010, 11:31

I love the bulldozer, very good concept! Any chance of a circular pit instead of rect?
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FinDude
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Joined: 21 Mar 2010, 11:37

Re: Mines

Post by FinDude » 06 May 2010, 11:37

Google_Frog wrote:spammed everywhere for defence
Mines are meant for area denial.

Spamming them won't be effective since
they will just chain on the first weasel.

You are going to need to clarify this shraka thing for me later today.
I offset the thing a bit to center the pit, probably did it wrong.

1Faction already has a mine laying wolverine;
(though the mines are broken, they have no los)
But the real 2faction CA is apparently very NONO towards new units.

The mines could be made faster to deploy,
but that would break consistency regarding cost=time.
Of course you could give the crawling bombs a minimal cost, medium time mine morph to increase their defensive ability.
Since they're totally in need of a buff.
NOTE:SARCASMSARCASMSARCASMCARCASM

Which reminds me, blastwing morph needs to be fixed.
Maybe give Nova something similar?


Bulldozer/pitfall pit could be supposedly easily made into a circle,
but I'm too bad at it.
Might look into doing the circle without an array...
Or just do it with one.
Last edited by FinDude on 06 May 2010, 15:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Mines

Post by Google_Frog » 06 May 2010, 15:31

Mines are meant for area denial.

Spamming them won't be effective since
they will just chain on the first weasel.
People find excessive area denial no fun. Chaining is not a problem as mines can be spaced. If mines are too cheap they can be spammed as they can't not make cost. If they are expensive they have to be placed as traps which rarely works when a constructor must place it, hence burrowing crawlies.
Bulldozer/pitfall pit could be supposedly easily made into a circle,
but I'm too bad at it.
The footprint of the unit is still rectangular.
You are going to need to clarify this shraka thing for me later today.
I offset the thing a bit to center the pit, probably did it wrong.
Basically this mine could be used for cheap terraform that works with different rules. You have to stop this mine from being able to create a slope with a greater gradient than shraka pyramids and make sure the mine has higher elmos^3/cost than normal terraform.
1Faction already has a mine laying wolverine;
(though the mines are broken, they have no los)
But the real 2faction CA is apparently very NONO towards new units.
You answered your own statement.
Maybe give Nova something similar?
If you give a side an interesting new unit many people think you've got to balance it out with a similar unit for the other side. It's hard to create similar interesting unit types such as these and make sure both units are balanced against both sides.
Of course you could give the crawling bombs a minimal cost, medium time mine morph to increase their defensive ability.
Since they're totally in need of a buff.
You think crawlies need buffing?
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Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
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Re: Mines

Post by Saktoth » 08 May 2010, 13:46

We can totally use the impulse thing on the Seismic Missile in 1faction. That is what the seismic missile is meant to do, flatten/smooth terrain, and knock units around. Not significantly, but enough to tip them off of cliffs, down slopes and generally just make them 'tumble'. And the Napalm missile needs to set the area (as well as the units) on fire for a while etc. So thats a kind of limited area denial. In fact, we could perhaps have a mine-deploying missile (Perhaps the mines could take a while to go live so you dont just plonk it down on top of buildings).

The lack of LoS on the artillery mines is delibate, they are artillery, and artillery is meant to require spotting and intel.

Wouldnt be the end of the world to have one artillery weapon that spots for itself though, once it actually starts firing (you still need at least radar coverage on the target i guess). Because i admit, not having LoS does make them useless as traps. Even with radar coverage, they miss an awful lot (because they are one-shot weapons, not AoE blasts).

The real problem with mines has always been methods of deployment though, as google says. But these mines are mostly (esp the impulse and the terraform) interesting enough that you might use them just for their special abilities, rather than for DPS.
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JohannesH
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Re: Mines

Post by JohannesH » 08 May 2010, 14:17

Arent the roaches & the arm equivalent kinda mines when they stop walking? There you have a good way of deployment, does additional mine type really add anything interesting other than flashy effects?

But anyway these mines are pretty cool to deploy too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqsSrWZciY0&feature=fvsr
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luckywaldo7
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Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: Mines

Post by luckywaldo7 » 08 May 2010, 15:42

Yeah roach and tick are basically mines when stopped. They are only available from 1 factory in each faction though, so even though they tend to be kind of op you don't see them as much as you might expect.
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