Construct additional pylons! - Page 7

Construct additional pylons!

A dynamic game undergoing constant development and refinement, that attempts to balance playability with fresh and innovative features.

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JohannesH
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by JohannesH » 21 Apr 2010, 18:37

Licho wrote:Car, morphing leads to exponential growth!!
When you build mexes, you get more metal which allows building more cons which allows building mexes which give metal that can be invested in ever increasing numbers of cons building mexes!!!!
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 21 Apr 2010, 20:47

Pxtl - linear OD with cap still leads to exponential growth. OD itself must be diminishing to prevent exponential growth.
And increasing limit on all mexes gives benefit to owner of more mexes.. it increases slippery slope instead of limiting it - it goes against goal.


Think about the problem other way - take Google's proposal which is simple, simple to implement and meets all my goals.

What goals it does not meet/what else would you want to achieve?

It's superior to manual morphing (less micro, no exponential growth phase, no change to OD needed)
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Kenku
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Kenku » 21 Apr 2010, 21:28

I like Googles idea, although it may be worthwhile to create a widget of come sort to show order/priority, and the priority adjustment function needs to be easy to set(so mexes after the first 3 are done in the right order, since raids/com walking to front of map can make the build order no ideal)
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bobthedinosaur
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by bobthedinosaur » 21 Apr 2010, 21:45

is the pylon lua code share able?
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 22 Apr 2010, 02:30

It's GPL, if your game is GPL too, you are fine to use it.

Regarding mex upgrade selection - it could be smarter than just time - it could for example take distance from enemy into account. But usually you are fine by not doing anything or just selecting 5 around base and sticking it to high priority - this will last you perhaps for 15 minutes in 3v3 game ..
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Google_Frog
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Google_Frog » 23 Apr 2010, 15:44

bobthedinosaur wrote:is the pylon lua code share able?
I'd suggest using the pre-OO version as jk wrote the OO one. With the version I wrote there is a chance that you'll receive hints.
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Pxtl
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Pxtl » 23 Apr 2010, 15:54

Licho wrote:It's GPL, if your game is GPL too, you are fine to use it.

Regarding mex upgrade selection - it could be smarter than just time - it could for example take distance from enemy into account. But usually you are fine by not doing anything or just selecting 5 around base and sticking it to high priority - this will last you perhaps for 15 minutes in 3v3 game ..
I don't really like the "high priority" thing. I'd rather have a traditional morph/cancel button and manually queue them according to the order I click the morph button with. The automated sorting system becomes a fallback when the manual-morph-queue becomes empty.

Thinking it over, I like the idea of the free-but-time-constrained mex morph thing. My only disagreements are as follows:
1) Morphed mexes don't produce more then regular mexes. They just unlock the Overdrive.
2) One mex-morphing at a time. If you want a dependant variable for the amount of metal on the map, I'd go with the speed of the mex morph, not the number. This makes it simpler to the user since it's clear which mex will morph when, since it's a simple deterministic queue.
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 23 Apr 2010, 21:12

Priority setting could remember order (it could be like queueing morphing) - no problem here..

Regarding mexes only unlocking OD - im not sure if thats worth ... effect of this is probably much smaller to really concern user.
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Saktoth
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Saktoth » 24 Apr 2010, 06:13

This proposal does violate the 'economic choice' part of the equation.

I also dont think the problem is exponential growth, its unlimited exponential growth. If, at a certain point the growth curve starts to curve steeply (say when you are first expanding, or when you first get up OD), this isnt the end of the world. We have to think what we're trying to prevent with exponential growth. As i see it, it is preventing players from simbasing and forcing them to fight for territory, but i think in doing this we've over-emphasized the land grab.

I think just an morphable mex that unlocks overdrive for a cost, where there is a good balance between the cost of adding in more energy and the cost of morphing an extra mex (say, once you are on x% OD, its time to morph another mex, say some hard and fast rule like 10e per mex). This is just pylons-as-mexes. Its simple, visual, and doesnt have any messy inorganic restrictions.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Google_Frog » 24 Apr 2010, 09:05

Ah yes, inorganic. Inorganic describes my qualms with the free morph system.

Morph might be good to try. If you have to unlock OD there will be complaints that the early economy is too hard.

Here is another idea:
Mexes constantly gain extraction rate up until a point. This is like the s44 flag system.
This idea seems to have the issue with early land grab though it may be possible to balance it such that land grab is not a problem.
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 24 Apr 2010, 11:27

If all mexes gain output, you get huge exponential growth too..

Exponential growth is bad, because it causes slippery slope to start very very early. Earlier than we want. It could lead to boring game decided in first 2 minutes.

Regarding eco choice - don't forge OD is still part of equation - you still have choice to build more E or not. It's true its lesser choice than OD, but not much lesser.
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JohannesH
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by JohannesH » 24 Apr 2010, 12:58

Licho wrote:If all mexes gain output, you get huge exponential growth too..

Exponential growth is bad, because it causes slippery slope to start very very early. Earlier than we want. It could lead to boring game decided in first 2 minutes.
In first 2 minutes you get your metal exclusively from capping mexes no? And taking mexes gives exponential returns. So I dont think your argument is very valid
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 24 Apr 2010, 19:00

Im talking about exponential TEAM DIFFERENCE of course!
Not about single player economy. I'm interested in reducing slippery slope.

Expansion happens at similar rate by both teams and its nowhere near exponential - you don't go 1 con, 2 cons, 4 cons, 8 cons getting mexes at same time..

Mex growth will reduce difference in land for some time.
Overdrive on the other hand multiplies mex count difference - so does "growth" of all mexes at once..
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JohannesH
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by JohannesH » 25 Apr 2010, 01:45

Building metalmaker economy happens at similar rate by both teams and its nowhere near exponential - you don't go 1 fus, 2 fus, 4 fus, 8 fus building mmakers at same time..

Well, under some circumstances you might, but that goes for mex economy too.
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 25 Apr 2010, 10:25

Building metal maker is of course exponential - it has following problems:

- its initial relative cost depends on number of mexes (its relatively cheaper for people who already have more land/mexes)

- its relative cost decreases - when you build first fusion + mm, next ones are relatively cheaper because your economy got bigger. So if you spend fixed share on growth (like 30%) it produces exponential growth

Exponential growth (including exponential decay) occurs when the growth rate of a mathematical function is proportional to the function's current value. In the case of a discrete domain of definition with equal intervals it is also called geometric growth
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JohannesH
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by JohannesH » 25 Apr 2010, 12:49

lool, I know what exponential means...

Your last post could be switched easily to talk of mexes and it would be just as true but I guess you dont get it that way.

The point is that building energy and mms or energy and mexes isnt that different in the aspects you think. The only difference is where you build the structures. How you would lead from that, that mex expansion would happen at a more similar pace between players I dont know, or have less slippery slope effect.

Building mexes is of course exponential. It gives exponential returns, but its on many maps hard to put up exponential nr of mexes. Since your enemy is there to kill them if you overextend yourself (and you might even run out of mexes to cap). And same thing goes for mms. The difference is that mms put you more behind on army size than mexes but with mexes you need to defend a wider area, also mex expansion is easier to scout. You never spend a fixed share of your income towards economy (any type) for a long period

Also anything you build has smaller relative cost to make the bigger economy you have not just mms :O
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 25 Apr 2010, 12:59

Initial mex expansion is constrained by distances/logistics - its not truly exponential.

Mex building is not slowed down that much by lack of metal - its limited by constructor speed and enemy forces.

Growth is also halted very soon as you grab all available land.

I'm not concerned about this part, because this phase takes just 1-2 minutes in CA, im considered about IMPACTS of uneven initial landgrab and exponential aspects of economy which rapidly increase initial difference to huge absolute income difference.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Google_Frog » 26 Apr 2010, 17:21

Here is an extremely simple idea:

(Team metal income from land) = (Team mex income)^x where x is in the range (0,1).

The number x could be based on map metal to fulfil a certain criteria. eg taking the second half of the map yeilds half the income of the first half.

Overdrive could be simplified to multiply (team mex income) based on (team energy) and (team mex income). For a more complex equation each mex could lose a small fraction of it's income when an extra mex is taken though this could discourage expansion in some situations.
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 26 Apr 2010, 19:29

I also considered such "corruption" - but i would like to directly compensate for more land and also allow you to lose middle without impacts.

Corruption needs major OD change (or it could penalize people) - and this also needs different algorithm for optimal distribution.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Google_Frog » 27 Apr 2010, 02:09

I also considered such "corruption" - but i would like to directly compensate for more land and also allow you to lose middle without impacts.
There needs to be an impact of losing land, just not a large one at first. The middle is easier to lose so I think a degrading returns system works in this criteria.

True it doesn't have the raiding of morph. That's not particularly important as energy can be raided for base raiding.
Corruption needs major OD change (or it could penalize people) - and this also needs different algorithm for optimal distribution.
Why not base OD off total mex income instead of the current complex system of mex count + mex metal.
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