Construct additional pylons! - Page 6

Construct additional pylons!

A dynamic game undergoing constant development and refinement, that attempts to balance playability with fresh and innovative features.

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Google_Frog
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Google_Frog » 20 Apr 2010, 15:47

Maybe those posts came across as too definitive. They're suggestion systems (at least I think they are), what do people think?
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 20 Apr 2010, 16:11

Read just design goals and google's simplification, its better proposal :)
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Pxtl
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Pxtl » 20 Apr 2010, 16:12

I really don't like those ones that put creation of "high level" mexes into some kind of special economy... and having to worry about the order I plop my mexes is kind of wierd. I have yet to try the new larger-radius pylons, but if they work I'd just like to see the Pylon as a ploppable (either in substitute or in addition to your fac plop). I'm still not sure that transmission nodes are right for CA, but I can see the appeal.

@Frog - how does that solve the problems of overdrive on the periphery? Transmission does that well.

@Licho - I don't get your concern about raidability. If you want to do a valuable deep-strike raid, you hit the windmills. I can see the importance of transmission pylons for keeping the E-sources near the mexes.

Idunno, maybe manual ODmex-morph + transmission? That gets you gradual entry, expense that makes it into a decision (assuming 200 metal to morph into ODmex). At 275 M each, ODmexes are valuable raiding targets. Transmission means that players can't morph their peripheral mexes until they hook them onto the grid or build a nearby E-source. I'd make the mex-morph either instant (pay upfront) or allow the mex to continue extracting while morphing.

(a part of me wants to experiment with making all static non-builders require transmission to fire/radar/whatever - It would be awesome to see people building frontline Solars to power their LLTs - the solar open/close suddenly becomes _really_ important).
Last edited by Pxtl on 20 Apr 2010, 16:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Google_Frog » 20 Apr 2010, 16:15

There's also the possibility of an OD buff to make pylons better to build early.
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 20 Apr 2010, 16:16

We tried it - initially pylons had 2x better OD - it led to massive eco ramp up - basically you had one lab streaming units constantly very soon in the game.
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CarRepairer
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by CarRepairer » 20 Apr 2010, 18:39

Google_Frog wrote:- The oldest mex is upgraded first. There is also an optional priority setting for mexes which upgrades the oldest of priority mexes first.
This is more complicated than just having a morph button on the mex. Bring back the morph I say. Choose which mexes you want to morph, at a significant cost so that it's not a good idea to do it early game and players will choose to morph their protected mexes first.
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Pxtl
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Pxtl » 20 Apr 2010, 18:50

CarRepairer wrote: This is more complicated than just having a morph button on the mex. Bring back the morph I say. Choose which mexes you want to morph, at a significant cost so that it's not a good idea to do it early game and players will choose to morph their protected mexes first.
What do you think of morph + transmission?
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CarRepairer
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by CarRepairer » 20 Apr 2010, 23:21

Pxtl wrote:
CarRepairer wrote: This is more complicated than just having a morph button on the mex. Bring back the morph I say. Choose which mexes you want to morph, at a significant cost so that it's not a good idea to do it early game and players will choose to morph their protected mexes first.
What do you think of morph + transmission?
I'll get it out of the way that I'm not a fan of the transmission thing. I'd love to play a game based entirely on trasmission (Fibre) but this is a half-assed transmission so for fluff reasons I don't like it. But the larger reason is that it requires extra econ micro.
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 21 Apr 2010, 01:12

Click based morphing is just that - click based - it DEMANDS extreme micro - and it needs cost causing exponential growth.

This would be automated with optional finer control - but still higher level than individual mex.
You just select mexes around base and switch them to high priority thats all.
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CarRepairer
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by CarRepairer » 21 Apr 2010, 01:16

Licho wrote:Click based morphing is just that - click based - it DEMANDS extreme micro - and it needs cost causing exponential growth.

This would be automated with optional finer control - but still higher level than individual mex.
You just select mexes around base and switch them to high priority thats all.
1) Click on a mex.
2) Click on the morph button.

or

1) Click on a constructor.
2) Click on build pylon.
3) Place pylon just right. This step can be frustrating in itself.
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SirMaverick
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by SirMaverick » 21 Apr 2010, 02:50

CarRepairer wrote:1) Click on a mex.
2) Click on the morph button.

or

1) Click on a constructor.
2) Click on build pylon.
3) Place pylon just right. This step can be frustrating in itself.
6 mexes with morph -> 12 clicks

Click on con, order 2 pylons. -> up to 6 mexes covered
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Pxtl
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Pxtl » 21 Apr 2010, 03:13

@SirMav

Want to do 12 mexes at once?

Zoom out to your base. Double-click 1 mex. Morph.


Hell, the morph approach has the advantage of ctrl-Z. Say the battle-lines are secure and you want to do *all* your mexes. Pick one unmorphed mex, ctrl-Z, morph.

Of course, a hybrid approach would also work - you can only morph one mex at a time, and it's free. Morphing is implicitly queued. If the user does not morph a mex, the oldest mex starts morphing automatically.

You could even add a message - you click "morph" on a mex and you've already done it to 5 others - a message says "Metal extractor added to morph queue in position 6". You can cancel a mex out of the queue at any time, even after morph has begun.

So then you get both - the semantics of manual morphing and the automated no-micro morphing system.

In this case, though, I would definitely say no to transmission, since the morph-queue is mentally complex enough.

Alternately, you just go the 1944 approach - Mexes grow in power over time, constantly, and reset to zero when destroyed. Hell, you could even get rid of diminishing-returns-based OD this way. Just a hard metal-make cap.
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luckywaldo7
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by luckywaldo7 » 21 Apr 2010, 03:33

My primary problem with morphing is that it is free and unassistable buildpower.
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SirMaverick
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by SirMaverick » 21 Apr 2010, 04:42

Pxtl wrote:@SirMav

Want to do 12 mexes at once?

Zoom out to your base. Double-click 1 mex. Morph.
Problem is that this will create a huge uncontrollable drain. Wait command or priorities don't work (due to free buildpower). With 2 morphs max at a time it might work.
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CarRepairer
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by CarRepairer » 21 Apr 2010, 17:43

SirMaverick wrote:
Pxtl wrote:@SirMav

Want to do 12 mexes at once?

Zoom out to your base. Double-click 1 mex. Morph.
Problem is that this will create a huge uncontrollable drain. Wait command or priorities don't work (due to free buildpower). With 2 morphs max at a time it might work.
That's a good idea.

@lucky: I think that "free buildpower" thing is kind of a fallacy. Most combat units can morph, geothermals can morph. A unit can only morph once or twice. Why would it be bad if mexes could too? You paid to build the unit in the first place so it's not free. Just like you paid for the constructor that offers endless buildpower.
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 21 Apr 2010, 17:47

Car, morphing leads to exponential growth!! It has to grow by itself at limited rate or you get micro annoynace and exponential growth.
Good luck morphing 100 mexes on CCR one by one (for optimal result)
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CarRepairer
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by CarRepairer » 21 Apr 2010, 17:54

Yes CCR would suck a little bit, but it's an extreme. Also see SirMav's previous post.

Also, I assumed morphed "L2" mexes would OD, so the growth would be logarithmic and slower than classic OD.
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luckywaldo7
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by luckywaldo7 » 21 Apr 2010, 18:03

CarRepairer wrote:Most combat units can morph, geothermals can morph.
But I don't really like those ones either D:
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Licho
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Licho » 21 Apr 2010, 18:10

No Car, the rate of mex morph is increasing! With each morphed mex you can afford next morph sooner resulting in gigantic jump in output.
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Pxtl
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Pxtl » 21 Apr 2010, 18:19

Well, the hybrid-queue free auto morph approach would allow for zero-micro play. Like I said, 1 morph at a time (for free, at that), and if the user hasn't selected a mex to morph then it morphs the oldest mex for you.

But here's a thought (shamelessly stolen from S44) that would be zero-micro... but also weird.

- Overdrive is linear. Each E you spend on OD gets you 0.1*Extraction Rate.

- Each extractor has an individual cap on their overdrive. By default, their OD cap is 0.25. This means you can rush a fusion and reap some overdrive if you like.

- Every minute, the OD cap on every Mex you own goes up 0.1. There is no limit on this. So at 10 minutes, if you haven't lost your starting mexes, your starting mexes could be overdriven up to 2.25x, at a cost of 12.5E each.

- When a mex is captured or destroyed, it goes back down to the default level.

- Obviously, the OD algorithm becomes very simple - just max out the most efficient mexes first, and move down the line to the least efficient ones. Add some GUI on each mex to show current OD and current ODcap.

Boom. Contested mexes are unimportant. Old mexes are crucial and are high-priority targets. Growth is linear with time.

Which isn't to say there are no drawbacks. The initial landgrab becomes vitally important to secure the best maximums later in game. Since there is no limit on the overdrive system, this means superweapons are practically an inevitability - assuming players have taken their turf and are porcing, growth is constant and linear.

But the good side is that it seems to accomplish the desired goals, and it's actually mathematically simple enough for the users to grasp.
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