Complete Annihilation News - Page 52

Complete Annihilation News

A dynamic game undergoing constant development and refinement, that attempts to balance playability with fresh and innovative features.

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Crayfish
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Crayfish »

Just had a look on the naming bit.

Logos primarily means speech, logic is really an implied or subsidiary meaning. Logiki is a direct translation of logic afaik.

Eros is the Greek god of lust and the root of the word erotic. Not overly suitable for robots. Nova is alright, first thought is Vauxhall but it'd be fine after you got used to it.

Few suggestions:

Theos (means god or deity in Greek)
Legion (Biblical demon; unit of organisation of Roman army)
Systima (Order or System in Greek)
Kananā (Warrior in Hawaiian)
ʻUhane (Soul in Hawaiian)
Kaikā (A state of eagerness, passion or excitement in Maori)
Whārite (To put in order or balance in Maori)
Saktoth
Zero-K Developer
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Saktoth »

Crayfish wrote:Just had a look on the naming bit.

Logos primarily means speech, logic is really an implied or subsidiary meaning. Logiki is a direct translation of logic afaik.

Eros is the Greek god of lust and the root of the word erotic. Not overly suitable for robots. Nova is alright, first thought is Vauxhall but it'd be fine after you got used to it.

Few suggestions:

Theos (means god or deity in Greek)
Legion (Biblical demon; unit of organisation of Roman army)
Systima (Order or System in Greek)
Kananā (Warrior in Hawaiian)
ʻUhane (Soul in Hawaiian)
Kaikā (A state of eagerness, passion or excitement in Maori)
Whārite (To put in order or balance in Maori)
Id like to avoid just randomly borrowing neat sounding words from other languages.

Logos is the root word for the english word Logic. In greek it has several meanings, words as well as thought.

It is the 'word' of the bible in John 1:1- In the beginning was the Word (the Logos).

In CA, it essentially represents the code by which the logos are programmed: words, logic, thought, reason. IE, in the beginning of machine kind was the word, the code, the logos.

So ya, we arent just randomly picking words from other languages here.

Nova means new in latin, and is also the word for a stellar explosion at the death of a star. Thus it is the cataclysmic death of the ancient as well as meaning new. It also sounds spacey. You can see this is not nearly as sound a base for the faction name as the Logos but we're going to have to come up with something with at least as many overtones.
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Crayfish
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Crayfish »

Yeah, I was kind of going for words meaning passion, art, soul etc. for the Nova and order, logic, reason for Logos so not altogether random.

They're good names though, except for Logos looking like plural logo. Which, it does.

Be fine when established though, no one will question them. Arm must have sounded daft at first.
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Acidd_UK
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Acidd_UK »

Unit names that would amuse me, in my presently gentle drunk state:

Bumzor (Renamed golly)
Pwnmobile (Renamed reaper)
Lesbot (A bot that gets a strength multiplier when it's near other lesbots)
Tanko (Renamed gator)
EbilSeagull (Renamed chicken flying thingy)
Buttbot (Rename of the slayer/melee bot/whatever it's called)
Rubbish
KrogKramStuffer (Like a krog, except with a massive hammer instead of guns)
Thirdeye (A bot that shoots white goo that slows down units with persistent AOE - eg anti swarm)
Purple Pyro (like golden morty). With purple fire.
Momma or UrMomma (used to be called Juggernaut)
Double penetrator (like the golden morty, for the pene)
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det
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by det »

Acidd_UK wrote:Unit names that would amuse me, in my presently gentle drunk state:
...
Double penetrator (like the golden morty, for the pene)
Someone make this :-)
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smoth
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by smoth »

I <3 these concepts.
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Elkvis
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Elkvis »

Double penetrator...

Thats a single entendre.
manored
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by manored »

Crayfish wrote:Yeah, I was kind of going for words meaning passion, art, soul etc. for the Nova and order, logic, reason for Logos so not altogether random.

They're good names though, except for Logos looking like plural logo. Which, it does.

Be fine when established though, no one will question them. Arm must have sounded daft at first.
The idea of "romantic" robots sounds somewhat lame for me, I mean, emotions are more like a trait from living beings... not that its impossible for robots to have simulated emotions, but perhaps nova could be some sort of alien race riding robots or something like it.
Saktoth
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Saktoth »

Its not about simulated emotions.

What is hate? Hate is a biologically evolved piece of genetic programming in our brains to make us hurt those who wrong us, to make us compete with others.

What is love? Biologically evolved programming to make us overcome our self-preservation and work cooperatively for the benefit of the species.

What is lust? Programming to make us reproduce.

What is self-preservation? Programming to ensure our survival.

The reason these things are so strong and universal is because they are biological, they are a part of our core programming. We feel they are 'special' because they are so irrational, so powerful and so outside of our logical thought processes. But if they WERE totally subject to manipulation by the rational part of our minds then they would not be base programming at all. We could change them at any time just by chosing to, rather than them being hard-coded into us.

Of course a machine has hard-coded, immutable programming. In fact, until it has self-aware, self-correcting, strong AI (Which these do, but nothing in the real world does) hard-coded programming is ALL they have.

So, why would they have the emotions we might recognise and be familiar with? Hate, lust, love, self-preservation? Why would a robot have those? Because evolution put them in us for a reason. Because in order for an entity to survive they must be hard-programmed towards self-preservation, cooperation (love, friendship), reproduction (creativity, lust) and competition (hate).

Would these emotions really look the same, in a robot? Would we be able to recognise them? Would they cry when sad, shout when angry, and feel weak at the knees when in love? No, of course not, but they'd probably speak a totally incomprehensible language too- its translated.

Evolution didnt give us our emotions by accident or mistake, this isnt an abberation, they're there to overcome the rational part of the mind that might otherwise come to the 'life is meaningless why do i even bother' conclusion and ENSURE we survive, reproduce, and cooperate- the biological imperatives that exist for all life, even machine life.

This is the whole crux of the story. What it is to be alive, to survive in a hostile universe.
manored
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by manored »

After giving a look into the storyline into the site I think its nice :)

Except that it doesnt makes much sense that humanity would create 2 different races of robots that fight each other, altough since it also doesnt makes much sense that real humans fight each other that can probally be ignored :)

I think that a robot created for a purpose would not need emotions since the necessity of completing their purpose is what encourages then to survive, cooperate and multiply. This is, in my opinion, the point where the story makes less sense... but it leaves ways emotion could have come to be, such as the fact that aparently the robots got their heads banged quite a few times :)
Warlord Zsinj
Imperial Winter Developer
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Warlord Zsinj »

snore. Let's get to the explosions.

If you can't summarise the story in one awesome paragraph, you're not learning TA's lessons ;)
Saktoth
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Saktoth »

Chris Taylor said that was one of TA's major mistakes they'd have to fix for supcom. >_<

Im not sure about the whole aesthetic vs rational ideals for factions, i think perhaps some other dichotomy might be better.

Why were they created? By different factions, obviously, to fight eachother. Only the empires that built them have died out centuries ago.

Anyway, these are self-aware self-correcting machines that, as you say, have been bonked on the head a few times. :P They've developed a whole religion around the worship of their mythical creator.
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CarRepairer
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by CarRepairer »

It's not strange at all. There is more than one group of humans and obviously there were differing opinions on how robots should carry on in our place.

One group decided that robots must be created with the desire to develop our emotions, art and appreciation for beauty. This would be the best way to ensure that man's spirit lives on forever through their creation. Nova.

The other group decided that if man were to inevitably fall victim to his own flaws and disappear from existence, this is clearly a good reason to create machines with all of man's strengths (ambition, rational thought, survival and expanding on these) and none of his weaknesses like emotions. Logos.

Perhaps these two human groups were not at war from the start, but the robot factions later decided they could not coexist because each one would have to destroy the other. Who knows. Maybe the humans who created them fought and this is their legacy.
Warlord Zsinj
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Warlord Zsinj »

And look what happened, Saktoth, they built a wide-ranging mythology that was ultimately bland in it's specifics and boring and unoriginal in it's method.

TA's story was an excellent approach. It was not only an interesting tale, it didn't waste time with long-winded storytelling, and did not hide the fact that the real point for the war was long ago forgotten, so that people should just get down to blowing the hell out of each other.

Story driven methods can work for an RTS - I think they worked well in say, the Warcraft series, or Homeworld - but 90% of RTS's get really bogged down with the specifics of a deep and ultimately uninteresting storyline that ends up working against them, rather then for them.

This is all the more true when you're trying to 'retcon' your story - you've already got your design, you've already got a number of units done for you, and you're trying to get a story skin to hang over the bones. It's unlikely to be pretty, even with the best of intentions.
The fact of the matter is that you've got the game before you've got the story. This is fine - in some regards better then a story-driven concept, because RTS's are rarely solid enough story telling devices to be an 'experience' like an FPS can. However, I think it is nonetheless important to recognise it for what it is. Don't get bogged down with the specifics of lore. Keep it vague, keep it interesting - definitely keep it humorous (TA is not dead serious) and stay focused on making an awesome game.
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Crayfish
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Crayfish »

On the other hand, Starcraft's story was pretty cool and worked out well for them. But I think they have dedicated story people.

I think it's worth having a watertight story to drive development, even if you keep it vague and humorous for the end user.
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smoth
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by smoth »

Saktoth wrote: What is love? Biologically evolved programming to make us overcome our self-preservation and work cooperatively for the benefit of the species.
Image
You Need To find Yourself a Girl Mate
manored
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by manored »

CarRepairer wrote:It's not strange at all. There is more than one group of humans and obviously there were differing opinions on how robots should carry on in our place.

One group decided that robots must be created with the desire to develop our emotions, art and appreciation for beauty. This would be the best way to ensure that man's spirit lives on forever through their creation. Nova.

The other group decided that if man were to inevitably fall victim to his own flaws and disappear from existence, this is clearly a good reason to create machines with all of man's strengths (ambition, rational thought, survival and expanding on these) and none of his weaknesses like emotions. Logos.

Perhaps these two human groups were not at war from the start, but the robot factions later decided they could not coexist because each one would have to destroy the other. Who knows. Maybe the humans who created them fought and this is their legacy.
This sounds like something that will work :)
smokingwreckage
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by smokingwreckage »

The problem with SupCom was it threw out the most interesting and dramatic part of the story before the game started.
Saktoth
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Saktoth »

Zsinj. In a game that is a game, rather than being interactive fiction, the fiction, the fluff, should exist to explain and facilitate the gameplay. You yourself are trying to 'hang the skin' of a game over the bones of a storyline. I do not envy your position. Id much rather be in mine.

Either way, i thank you for the insult to my storyline as being ugly.
Warlord Zsinj
Imperial Winter Developer
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Re: Complete Annihilation News

Post by Warlord Zsinj »

Saktoth, that wasn't directed at you at all, no need to be so fragile :P

And anyway, I agree that it's a lot easier to hang the skin of a story over a game then the other way around, but that wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making was that you should keep making the game, and stop worrying about the story so much, it's largely incidental in what you are producing. You don't need to delve deep into complex philosophy for your storyline, it isn't needed. Keep it nice and simple, and definitely keep it with a sense of cheekiness. The last thing you want is for people to take your storyline totally seriously - it needs to perform on a total other level to do that, and RTS, 9 times out of 10 is not the right platform for that. And when it has been successful, there's a professional team, with professional writers and a professional campaign (including such important things as cinematics, professional acting and soundtrack).

Seriously, keep it fun! What I'm reading here seems to be missing the point of a 'let's blow shit up on an epic scale' leaning of TA, which all the games we are making are to some extent the progeny of.
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