Mod / Map separation - Page 8

Mod / Map separation

Requests for features in the spring code.

Moderator: Moderators

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lurker
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by lurker » 10 Jun 2009, 23:27

Which has already been changed so stop going on about it.
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smoth
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by smoth » 10 Jun 2009, 23:28

lurker wrote:Which has already been changed so stop going on about it.
what is the official solution?
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Nemo
Spring 1944 Developer
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by Nemo » 11 Jun 2009, 00:30

Car: Right, which leaves me confused for calls for override switches and other, non-notification approaches.

Anyways, non-issue.
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lurker
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by lurker » 11 Jun 2009, 00:45

smoth wrote:
lurker wrote:Which has already been changed so stop going on about it.
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 2&start=49
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zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by zwzsg » 11 Jun 2009, 01:46

Regret wrote:One thing taking priority over another is hierarchy.
As proven by this map-changing mod, as well as lurker reminder about how the Lua of a mod could change back units changed by a map, your point about map archive being higher priority than mod archive is void. But my map-changing mod is lulzier than talks and words.
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Regret
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by Regret » 11 Jun 2009, 01:56

zwzsg wrote:As proven by this map-changing mod, as well as lurker reminder about how the Lua of a mod could change back units changed by a map, your point about map archive being higher priority than mod archive is void. But my map-changing mod is lulzier than talks and words.
Regret wrote:The map can include a custom gadget handler as I said and then the mod cannot do anything to block the map lua.
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Argh
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by Argh » 11 Jun 2009, 02:03

I am still entirely curious why we're arguing about this.

If you write map Lua that depends on game assets, then it will probably crash and burn if those assets aren't available.

If you write map Lua that is independent of game assets, then it'll either enhance a given game, or ruin the experience.

Looks like the first one is something that's only suitable for projects that are willing to make their own maps to fit their custom gameplay, and the second is more likely to lead to a bad experience for anybody playing something the map's coder didn't plan for.

So... why all the fighting? Both uses are legitimate, and the second case practically guarantees fairly benign use cases, if the mapper wants his / her work used with multiple games. Like... I can see using custom LuaGaia for a spectacular visual effect, or something like that... but meh, the maps that function like Warcraft III "maps", where they're essentially variant gametypes... are a BA phenomena, and will probably remain that way.
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zwzsg
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by zwzsg » 11 Jun 2009, 02:16

Regret wrote:The map can include a custom gadget handler as I said and then the mod cannot do anything to block the map lua.
Yes, you can make a map that breaks every mod, or a map that makes Spring.exe plain crash. So?

Note that it would be possible to make a map break every mod and maybe even crash even if maps archives where restricted to the /maps/'s .smf, .smt.smd..

We even had a few case of maps inadvertandly breaking the mod Lua just with their metal map!

What are you going to do about it? Forbid maps to come with custom heightmaps because having high amplitude noise as heightmap breaks BA gameplay?
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Regret
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by Regret » 11 Jun 2009, 02:22

zwzsg wrote:Yes, you can make a map that breaks every mod, or a map that makes Spring.exe plain crash. So?

Note that it would be possible to make a map break every mod and maybe even crash even if maps archives where restricted to the /maps/'s .smf, .smt.smd..

We even had a few case of maps inadvertandly breaking the mod Lua just with their metal map!

What are you going to do about it? Forbid maps to come with custom heightmaps because having high amplitude noise as heightmap breaks BA gameplay?
Troll harder.
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Argh
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by Argh » 11 Jun 2009, 02:28

Regret, zwzsg's basically right on this.

Maps aren't universal objects. They're game-specific, and their features are very flexible.

What I hear, from the yelling about this, is that people are scared of this, because it means that many maps aren't fully playable with their games.

That's tough. There cannot be, and will never be, a good way to determine whether any given map Lua is benign or not. And there is no way to "override Lua if it's going to do Something Bad", because Lua doesn't know what "Something Bad" is- that's contextual, and requires human choices.

Game designers can limit their games to particular maps, though, so the choice is there if this is a major issue for you.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by Forboding Angel » 11 Jun 2009, 02:30

He makes a good point. This thread is stupid. Go put some neosporin on your ass and leave this non-issue alone.
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zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by zwzsg » 11 Jun 2009, 02:31

Regret wrote:Troll harder.
Again, when you cannot cope with you being refuted, you resort to calling people "troll". I resent that.
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Regret
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by Regret » 11 Jun 2009, 02:34

zwzsg wrote:Again, when you cannot cope with you being refuted, you resort to calling people "troll". I resent that.
You did not refute anything. But I agree this thread serves no purpose anymore as what is planned is sufficient to achieve what I requested.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by Google_Frog » 11 Jun 2009, 08:29

Argh wrote:That's tough. There cannot be, and will never be, a good way to determine whether any given map Lua is benign or not.
There already is a way to do that. Play the map and find out.
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Sertse
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by Sertse » 11 Jun 2009, 09:25

I have always imagined the beginning on each match to be something similar to the start of Terminator. You, the weird human/alien/robot/whatever you are "zapped" from your home world to colonise some foreign planet. The planet has it's own environment which could affect you/your equipment in various ways. Your vehicles move slower than normal because the terrain on this planet is extra rough. The planet might be cursed by zombies that make your weapons more powerful than they normally are.

The reverse just doesn't make sense. How could you explain your flash tank travelling at 200km/hr on any sort of environment?

That's your justification for map overriding mods.
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Strategia
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by Strategia » 11 Jun 2009, 15:56

Regret wrote:You did not refute anything.
No, but he raised an entirely valid point. And your tendency to name people as trolls for just disagreeing with you and raising valid points that would invalidate your requests is becoming very apparent.
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AF
AI Developer
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by AF » 11 Jun 2009, 15:59

smoth wrote:I thought what he did was kinda neat and people are over reacting. either this is one of the greatest trollings in all of spring(props) or people are over reacting.
I unfortunately am the very incarnation of the greatest trolling in springs history. My post count is a testament to this achievement.

As for you lot, you all seem to be barking up the wrong tree.

In order to completely and utterly devastate any need for further arguing and debate, I put forward the following unarguable unrefutable points which cover pretty much everything:
  • If a map changes a mod, and it breaks other games/mods ( e.g. a map that changes BA which crashes kernel panic and gundam ), then there is no reason that the maps lua gadget cannot detect this and conditionally execute the code and load in the units when the conditions needed are met.

    So there's no reason a unit cant be loaded/modified via lua IF and only if the right mod is used. All the tools are already available. If the conditions fail then itll be normal playable. if its unrecoverable display an error message using a lua widget bundled
  • Maps like DSDS will always be possible and we will always have this problem. Anyone who wants to do it will always figure out a way around things to do it. We'll be stuck with this thread again and people will repeat all the same points and argue the same things, epic waste of time.
  • The community is capable of filtering out these maps with far less effort than it would take a programmer to be able to write code that figures it all out on tis own and play cat and mouse catchup over time.
  • Luagaia and luarules need sorting so maps have full control of gaia, and mods have full control of rules.
  • Luarules in maps is considered a bug by the developers, its days are numbered
  • There si an archetypal conflict of interests here for which there is no solution that lets you have your cake and eat it unless we learnt o get along and cooperate, or strip features out of maps or mods
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smoth
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by smoth » 11 Jun 2009, 16:06

AF wrote:[*]Luagaia and luarules need sorting so maps have full control of gaia, and mods have full control of rules.
[*]Luarules in maps is considered a bug by the developers, its days are numbered
wut?
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Regret
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by Regret » 11 Jun 2009, 16:16

Strategia wrote:No, but he raised an entirely valid point. And your tendency to name people as trolls for just disagreeing with you and raising valid points that would invalidate your requests is becoming very apparent.
hahahahahahahahahah troll
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AF
AI Developer
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Re: Mod / Map separation

Post by AF » 11 Jun 2009, 16:17

Maps should use luagaia not luarules to implement trickery. Currently it is possible to use Lua rules in maps however. This is unintended and considered an engine bug as pointed out earlier in the thread by tobi
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