Pathing...

Pathing...

Requests for features in the spring code.

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Gota
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Joined: 11 Jan 2008, 16:55

Pathing...

Post by Gota »

Can an option be made to allow units to not go around hills on their way to their destination?
I think it is much more intuitive for units to move directly to where i tell them without going around hills and water(if its an amphibious units that decides it will be quicker for it to move on land around the water)even if they will walk slower.
If it's such a big hill I will tell them to move around it myself,I don't want the pathfinding to decide to move my units through "that valley",where my enemy has tons of defenses just cause moving my units through the mountains is a bit slower.

This is especially annoying when it comes to kbots and amphibious units.

The only time my units should not try to move in a straight line to their destination,is when there is unpassable terrain blocking their way.
Only than should the pathfinding make them try and avoid that terrain.
Last edited by Gota on 25 Feb 2009, 10:58, edited 1 time in total.
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lurker
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Re: Pathing...

Post by lurker »

My question is how much of this is the pathfinder not counting the cost of turning.
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Gota
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Re: Pathing...

Post by Gota »

Even if that is the problem i still think units should move in straight lines.

There are many times where hilly zones are out of range of the enemy but cause of the pathfinder my units avoid them.
This is especially painful for kbots and all terrain units.

Kbots,amphibious units,all terrain units...their role IS to move on hills and cliffs not avoid them.

I think kbots and all terrain units should take advantage of those places as they are meant to do, not try and avoid them and having me guessing when the pathfinder will suddenly decide to move them someplace else cause it thinks the movement on those places is too slow..
Tanks also.
If the map has hills tanks can move on,than they should not try and avoid those hills unless I tell them to specifically,not the other way around.
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lurker
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Re: Pathing...

Post by lurker »

Why are your kbots so much slower on hilly areas that they go around?
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Gota
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Re: Pathing...

Post by Gota »

If the hills is big they go around it.
Imagine a lake.
I wanna move my amphibious tanks from 1 shore directly to the opposite one.
If the pathfinder decides its faster for my amphibious tanks to move on the shore instead of descending it and than ascending it back(2 slopes)my amphibious tanks will die to the land units and defenses near the shoreline instead of moving underwater and avoiding death.
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Beherith
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Re: Pathing...

Post by Beherith »

Use waypoints and stop asking for backwards features.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Pathing...

Post by Google_Frog »

Sounds like you want a new command to make units move directly to the location.
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smoth
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Re: Pathing...

Post by smoth »

Beherith wrote:Use waypoints and stop asking for backwards features.
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ZellSF
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Re: Pathing...

Post by ZellSF »

Even when I'm carefully using waypoints I've seen units try to go paths that makes no sense according to the waypoints because of a small slope. Sometimes even because of variations in the terrain I can't even see (com explosions on DSD for example). When I try to get units over small hills I use 5+ waypoints for the hill only just to be sure. It's stupid.

So I agree with Gota here. There should at least somehow be an option for this. Actually, it should be the default, it's a strategy game you should decide where your units go, not the engine.

If the engine had a clue what "better" was it should do that, but quicker in too many cases just doesn't equal better.
Last edited by ZellSF on 25 Feb 2009, 16:46, edited 1 time in total.
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imbaczek
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Re: Pathing...

Post by imbaczek »

lurker wrote:My question is how much of this is the pathfinder not counting the cost of turning.
this, and the fact that going downhill is faster than the pathfinder thinks.

IOW not an easy fix in any way imaginable.
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CarRepairer
Cursed Zero-K Developer
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Re: Pathing...

Post by CarRepairer »

Perhaps this can be solved with a small widget where you select a unit and then meta+rightclick (meta=spacebar usually) and it sets a bunch of intermediate waypoints.

One could name this widget "Walk The Line."
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ZellSF
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Re: Pathing...

Post by ZellSF »

intermediate waypoints could have problems, if you for example want to change part of the path.. Maybe some sort of hidden waypoints that the widget keeps track of itself. Also I wouldn't use a meta key for it, imo it should be the default behavior for anyone using the widget.
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Gota
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Re: Pathing...

Post by Gota »

Beherith wrote:Use waypoints and stop asking for backwards features.
How is this backward?
Explain yourself cause your statement is completely moronic.

There is nothing backward about this.
Why would anyone,when playing with kbots,want them to move around hills?
It makes no sense for units which,climbing hills is one of their strengths,to walk around hills if they can walk on them.
Same with amphibious tanks.
This even sometimes interferes with tank play...
Id suggest this would be the default but at least an option...

If this pathing system is worse than what we have now please explain how..
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Peet
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Re: Pathing...

Post by Peet »

Pathing takes unit speed on a slope into account and optimizes the path given to a unit to provide the quickest route to the destination. Wanting a unit to take a slower path simply because it can isn't a particularly sensical solution.
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smoth
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Re: Pathing...

Post by smoth »

I don't see this too often in gundam, perhaps slope tolerance is a factor? The only times I ever H8 the pathing is for aquatic units. Because they want to get out the water.
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Argh
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Re: Pathing...

Post by Argh »

Perhaps this can be solved with a small widget where you select a unit and then meta+rightclick (meta=spacebar usually) and it sets a bunch of intermediate waypoints.

One could name this widget "Walk The Line."
Based on my experience with World Builder, that won't work very well. You'd be appalled at how many waypoints it takes sometimes. Even when the map's totally flat, it wants to wiggle and veer about. It's lame.

A movement command that asks the units to move without taking terrain into account (obviously, not the default) would be best, which is why I asked for it a couple of months ago.
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Gota
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Re: Pathing...

Post by Gota »

Well I think that making a tag to control it for individual units and a tag(or whatever) to enable this for an entire game/mod would be best.

Making yet another command will only make controlling your forces even more complicated and it already is complicated with all the special commands out there.
Last edited by Gota on 26 Feb 2009, 13:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Argh
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Re: Pathing...

Post by Argh »

That's true, but a command means that then it's Lua-able, and flexible. I.E., if you want something to always use it, just use Lua to change a Move into a MoveNoPath or whatever. It's not a very big deal.

But no matter how it's done... the inability to ever turn off the pathfinder's optimization routine is a major pain in the ass. Whether it's getting your units to climb a hill correctly, drive in a straight line on flat terrains, or keep to a pre-programmed path for SP / map purposes, this is a major feature that's lacking.
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ZellSF
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Re: Pathing...

Post by ZellSF »

Peet wrote:Pathing takes unit speed on a slope into account and optimizes the path given to a unit to provide the quickest route to the destination. Wanting a unit to take a slower path simply because it can isn't a particularly sensical solution.
Units should take the slower path by default, not because they can, but because it is usually safer. The quickest path is usually the one guarded by the enemy.
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Archangel of Death
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Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 18:15

Re: Pathing...

Post by Archangel of Death »

Well, no pathing at all isn't what is wanted, but rather only pathing to get around impassable terrain. - Obviousinator

You don't want to say take the slowest path though, thats for sure. The pathfinder probably doesn't save slower paths due to its optimizations for one. And also, there is no slowest path! Unless you want all units to circle for eternity.

Without knowing how the pathfinder is implemented saying what we want is all just shots in the dark... so I'm gunna fire a few bullets to! I'd guess just giving units and/or movement classes preferability multipliers for the different terrain types/slope ranges to modify the path costs would be a viable and possibly effective (maybe requiring heavy testing on modder's part) solution.
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