BA Community Downgrade Due to abusive admin autohost

[Senna]

This happened always, but now more than often, and this is why community goes downgrade than up.

IMO some autohosts must be in the target of real spring admins, not even passive moderators.

All the new players got knocked out or insulted out from BA Overkill autohost, since there are no rules, so every admin can do what he wants.

What happened to old good spring community?

[PicassoCT]

You left us when we needed you the most. How could you?

[Forboding Angel]

The good old spring community had self hosters and not autohosts. Therefore, various players were known to be good hosts and so players flocked to those hosters. With autohosts, anything goes.

Unmoderated Autohosts are what happened to the spring community. Autohosts should be restricted to the purview of the game dev and sanctioned by said game dev.

[MasterBel2]

The good old spring community had self hosters and not autohosts. Therefore, various players were known to be good hosts and so players flocked to those hosters. With autohosts, anything goes.

Unmoderated Autohosts are what happened to the spring community. Autohosts should be restricted to the purview of the game dev and sanctioned by said game dev.

Another way of looking at this is that Uberserver is, if I understand correctly, the official Springrts server. In theory we could go from that statement to saying that, "since we want the Spring community as a whole to be a pleasant place. Autohosts that are not tightly moderated in accordance with the community's goals should be removed from the server".

Such a statement by the community could be taken as over-the-top, but it's likely that the people protesting hardest against it will be the less nice type of person. And besides, they can always create their own hosts, can't they?

I would agree wholeheartedly that the BA community will soon be, if not already has been, killed for once and for all because of the state of the community. But then somehow that fact is sitting right beside the fact that there are a good many perfectly reasonable, nice people out there who would do well to have moderator rights.

[MasterBel2]

If I may add evidence to this discussion:

Log.txt

(1.33 KiB) Downloaded 54 times

They were also laughing about Senna and his fb (lost that to lobby crash), and what Murtabot says about him and other things. I asked them to stop a couple times, but what can you do, when Adolf is Admin? And atm OverKillHost1 is pretty much the only host that anyone seems willing to play on. A few people seem to have something against Fabrice's hosts, and they're convinced that balancing is broken on tzaeru's. Occasionally I can get them to play, but people are very quick to revert to OverKillHost1

Partly because of how people seem to prefer OverKillHost1, I feel a bit guilty about calling for it to be addressed, because it may threaten the community. But then do I want to keep around in a community this crude? That said, murtagon and the other autohost admins have seemed fairly reasonable when approached about what they're doing, but my voice doesn't seem to be listened to anymore (it used to).

~MasterBel2

[Forboding Angel]

Floris should have total control over BA hosts. Period.

[gajop]

I'm no longer active in the Spring uberserver player community (mostly because BA doesn't interest me as much now), but I don't like what we're seeing recently. I also don't like the current policy, where we exhibit no control over what autohost servers are doing.

I think there should be 2 set of rules:
1) Game rules that are enforced by the admins appointed by the game devs.
2) Global server rules created by the server admins (or spring forum admins, which should be the same thing imo), and include common anti -
abuse/flame/insult policies. I suppose we could appoint some more mods to deal with those globally (although I much prefer for game admins to take care of it, and only resort to server admins when this is impossible).

PS: Also, if I went to a different game and saw a guy called Adolf (or Hitler) in an admin position, actively abusing a player, I would probably not stay long there.

[Silentwings]

Bluntly - it looks to me as though the situation today, in terms of BAs quality of hosts, behaviour within hosts, and player numbers, is not measurably different from any other point in the past four years. (And before that, it most certainly was worse.)

Whilst a laudable goal, ideas for moderating within autohosts always seem to rely on having a much larger number of sane & well regarded people around than are actually available.

we exhibit no control over what autohost servers are doing

I understand what you mean, but this is not strictly true e.g. viewtopic.php?f=44&t=36078#p581789.

X should have total control over Y hosts.

See e.g. ZK for how to implement this, if desired.

What happened to old good spring community?

https://i.imgur.com/MjzCroc.jpg

[Senna]

Been talking with adolf and this is what he thinks.

Nothing personal but this.

[17:57:46] <StoryTeller_Adolf> fair and simple
[17:57:46] <StoryTeller_Adolf> cunt
[17:58:21] <[ACE]Senna> u insulted me heavyly before
[17:58:25] <StoryTeller_Adolf> like what
[17:58:28] <StoryTeller_Adolf> becuase u started shit cunt
[17:58:31] <[ACE]Senna> also calling other cunts and tards
[17:58:32] <StoryTeller_Adolf> how about u leave me alone
[17:58:34] <StoryTeller_Adolf> and i leave u
[17:58:36] <StoryTeller_Adolf> stfu
[17:58:51] <[ACE]Senna> now dont try to avoid it
[17:59:33] <[ACE]Senna> is not my fault u post and insult other people around in autohost not only me but others
[18:00:10] <StoryTeller_Adolf> ur fault joining
[18:00:11] <StoryTeller_Adolf> overkill
[18:00:18] <[ACE]Senna> also dont forget u made overkill autohost to insult all ace autohost
[18:01:12] <StoryTeller_Adolf> im not owner
[18:01:19] <StoryTeller_Adolf> murtabot is
[18:01:22] <StoryTeller_Adolf> stfu
[18:01:25] <StoryTeller_Adolf> this is a free host
[18:01:29] <StoryTeller_Adolf> people can say whatever they want
[18:01:33] <StoryTeller_Adolf> u can play pa stfu
[18:01:36] <StoryTeller_Adolf> and be nice there

Also do not understand is murtagon makes him admin on overkill autohost and now after he made this puts the fault on the owner murtagon (calling him murtabot).

[MasterBel2]

I think there should be 2 set of rules:
1) Game rules that are enforced by the admins appointed by the game devs.
2) Global server rules created by the server admins (or spring forum admins, which should be the same thing imo), and include common anti -
abuse/flame/insult policies. I suppose we could appoint some more mods to deal with those globally (although I much prefer for game admins to take care of it, and only resort to server admins when this is impossible).

I'm not sure, but it seems like the foundation for this philosophy is already written in the agreement.txt for uberserver (in particular the 2nd last paragraph):

Code: Select all

Terms of Use

While the administrators and moderators of this server will attempt to keep spammers and players violating this agreement off the server, it is impossible for them to maintain order at all times. Therefore you acknowledge that any messages in our channels express the views and opinions of the author and not the administrators or moderators (except for messages by these people) and hence will not be held liable.

As a user you agree, to any information you have entered as part of your registration being stored in a database. Additionally, while you are using our services, you agree to allow the server and its managed game hosts to collect and record information including, but not limited to: history and details of matches played (including a list of participating players, the map and game selected, match length, ingame awards achieved and winning team(s)); text of chat in registered chat channels, IP and MAC address; client software used to connect to server; and history of moderator action. This information is used to provide services such as publically hosted replays, persistent game elements, and following of chat posted while a user was offline; and to facilitate moderator/administrator action in the event of disputes or misconduct. Some of this information will be made publicly visible to other users, while the remainder (except your password) will be visible to our administration team.

While information that is not publicly visible will not otherwise be disclosed to any third party without your consent, administrators and moderators cannot be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.

You agree not to use any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed). You agree that the administrators and moderators of this server have the right to mute, kick or ban you at any time should they see fit.

By using this service you hereby agree to all of the above terms.

[FabriceFABS]

Bluntly - it looks to me as though the situation today, in terms of BAs quality of hosts, behaviour within hosts, and player numbers, is not measurably different from any other point in the past four years. (And before that, it most certainly was worse.)

Whilst a laudable goal, ideas for moderating within autohosts always seem to rely on having a much larger number of sane & well regarded people around than are actually available.

we exhibit no control over what autohost servers are doing

Hi,
-BA mostly- community is very different since AdolfS got his own hosts, more exactly from the moment he decided to control BlackHoleHost with Mando.
When «BlackHoleHost» were ban (on the period when AdolfS and Mando both very active on it), AdolfS made up a «BlackHoleHost_1».
I kick his ass out of [ACE] admins because I can't stand anymore this sort of level rebellion, arrogance and also really too much players complained to me regards to his total talking-disrespect or how he do admin management. This is not acceptable and very unfair.
I already warned here several times about that. Frankly, I do not understand why it's still going on...

If I may add evidence to this discussion:

Log.txt

They were also laughing about Senna and his fb (lost that to lobby crash), and what Murtabot says about him and other things. I asked them to stop a couple times, but what can you do, when Adolf is Admin? And atm OverKillHost1 is pretty much the only host that anyone seems willing to play on. A few people seem to have something against Fabrice's hosts, and they're convinced that balancing is broken on tzaeru's. Occasionally I can get them to play, but people are very quick to revert to OverKillHost1

Partly because of how people seem to prefer OverKillHost1, I feel a bit guilty about calling for it to be addressed, because it may threaten the community. But then do I want to keep around in a community this crude? That said, murtagon and the other autohost admins have seemed fairly reasonable when approached about what they're doing, but my voice doesn't seem to be listened to anymore (it used to).

~MasterBel2

Just admit everything that AdolfSatan and his friend gently destruct the -BA- community from more than one year now.
This guy annoys much players here especially everyone that are opponent of his rules or way of talk, etc...
Also insults and defames myself on his hosts by automated messages or directly by himself.
When players plays elsewhere for instance in [ACE] hosts, he joins it and do spam-critic regards to [ACE] hosts / myself, and spam-annoy players with agressivity to force move them on OverKill hosts (again yesterday, on 05/05/2017 FYI)
He should probably have more than 70 accounts actually because he use Proxies / VPN with arrogance to avoid IP ban.

If he says white and you say black while you got him in front of you, he would shotgun you for sure.

MasterBel, when BlackHoleHost were down, players gently moved elsewhere, with no questions.
People attracts people, this also exists in real life

[OPAdolfSatan]

HI TARDICE I MISS You when will you be back buddy, BA misses your tears and laughter and your autism
<3 love OP_ADOLF

User was warned for this post, felony 1

-- FLOZi

[very_bad_soldier]

Thanks for this demonstration adolf... Can we have some admin here please?

@fabrice
Could you setup a proper 8v8 BA host with a proper set admins please? I would really like to play some games but playing normal games on Overkill is not possible anymore since the trolling just went loco in the last days.

[FabriceFABS]

Thanks for this demonstration adolf... Can we have some admin here please?

Hi VBS,
After all, everyone is free to believe what he wants !

@fabrice
Could you setup a proper 8v8 BA host with a proper set admins please? I would really like to play some games but playing normal games on Overkill is not possible anymore since the trolling just went loco in the last days.

Long time ago I know you now...
OK why not. I catch you later.

[FabriceFABS]

...When players plays elsewhere for instance in [ACE] hosts, he joins it and do spam-critic regards to [ACE] hosts / myself, and spam-annoy players with agressivity to force move them on OverKill hosts (again yesterday, on 05/05/2017 FYI)...

HI TARDICE I MISS You when will you be back buddy, BA misses your tears and laughter and your autism
<3 love OP_ADOLF

Here is demo (got full logs if needed) how this player is toxic, and send bad behavior to games.

[Fri May 5 09:58:31 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> wow u guys move host?
[Fri May 5 09:58:45 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <KINGJB> tell him bell
[Fri May 5 09:58:46 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <KINGJB> why
[Fri May 5 09:58:47 2017] === [SPM]spymort left ===
[Fri May 5 09:58:48 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> xD
[Fri May 5 09:58:51 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> why bel why
[Fri May 5 09:58:57 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <MasterBel2> because I'm sick of the culture in OverKill
[Fri May 5 09:58:57 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> damn even belmakor op in overkill
...
[Fri May 5 09:59:29 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <KINGJB> story teller please don't insult
[Fri May 5 09:59:29 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <MasterBel2> Thanks
[Fri May 5 09:59:36 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> xD
[Fri May 5 09:59:37 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <MasterBel2> Now talk nice or go away
...
[Fri May 5 10:03:47 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> ok rejoin overkill
[Fri May 5 10:03:51 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> i try to sto ptrolls
[Fri May 5 10:03:52 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> like jb
[Fri May 5 10:05:31 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> spymort join overkill
...
[Fri May 5 10:24:53 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> join overkill after op
[Fri May 5 10:24:56 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> dsd time
...
[Fri May 5 10:41:40 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <StoryTeller_Adolf> join overkill after
[Fri May 5 10:41:41 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <StoryTeller_Adolf> op
[Fri May 5 10:41:44 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <StoryTeller_Adolf> make host nicer
[Fri May 5 10:41:53 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <BelSon> liar adolf
...
[Fri May 5 10:45:10 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <StoryTeller_Adolf> belson join op overkill after i promise to train u op
...
[Fri May 5 10:45:46 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> join overkill pleaes
...
[Fri May 5 10:46:09 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> join overkill op
...
[Fri May 5 10:48:00 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> spy join overkill op

[Fri May 5 10:48:00 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> spy join overkill op
[Fri May 5 10:48:07 2017] <galileo> !mute StoryTeller_Adolf
...
[Fri May 5 10:52:03 2017] <[ACE]Pirine> <StoryTeller_Adolf> toldu join overkill
...
[Fri May 5 10:52:54 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> join overkill uc unts
[Fri May 5 10:52:55 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> i mean
[Fri May 5 10:52:56 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> players
...
[Fri May 5 10:53:52 2017] <StoryTeller_Adolf> coba join overkil
...

Those OverKill hosts should be ban.
Its admins do unacceptable things and players suffer it from long, long, too long time ago.
When you're a player and even less an administrator, you do not do things like that.

[brainfart]

I got kicked and it's just one of those stupid things that isn't really the end of the world, just a spat. Admin was dumb banning me instead of the person starting it. Someone drew a giant knob over my base and it escalated from there. A lot of us come here to kick back, have fun and be silly.

The real problem is not dimwitted admins for autohost, you can still in the worse case host yourself. The real problem is that numbers are falling. Sometimes it's hard to get in a good game and people take it way too seriously.

There needs to be some effort to get new blood into the game and also to try to create a system that makes it easier for newbs to get into it. Perhaps admins can be a problem here if they also put off newbs.

[FabriceFABS]

...When players plays elsewhere for instance in [ACE] hosts, he joins it and do spam-critic regards to [ACE] hosts / myself, and spam-annoy players with agressivity to force move them on OverKill hosts (again yesterday, on 05/05/2017 FYI)...

Today (07/05/2017), it was Mando, with another way.
After a couple of around 10 bans this afternoon from Triton and myself, he decided to make 3x DDOS attacks on [ACE]host's IP.
Players finally moved, I let you guess where, no choice for playing.

[brainfart]

I've changed my position on this. Once or twice its alright. After a while you just don't want to bother playing any more and would rather play another game where you can join large battles without the harassment. Sometimes the authhost admins make bad choices but from what I've seen the problem is much more around small groups of elitist players that gang up together against outsiders to the point that they just leave.

[dansan]

So we are (again) at the point of fantastic ideas for the entire spring infra to solve a problem of a singular game community: in BA 8v8 DSD - and only BA 8v8 DSD - there is so much boredom, that they have to create artificial drama. Because the experienced players are the most bored, they create the most drama. The others follow, because that's what people (especially boys) do.

As no dev is willing to change a lot of mechanisms that work well for all other spring communities, there is still the one solution left: moderate and administrate BA games and hosts!

Simple as that. The abusive autohost admins and players need a good and regular spanking, and that's it.
All that is needed for that are a few trusted lobby moderators to kick them and their hosts if they don't follow the spring community guidelines. It works in RL, in the forums and in other game communities - it'd work in BA too.

I like BA a lot - also big matches, but haven't played it lately, because I'm so fed up with the community. The downfall of BA sadens me and I see only one way to save BA:

As the current lobby moderators are not willing or have no time to moderate the 8v8 host I make the following offer: if - and only if - I get the blessing of a BA maintainer or spring community leader or lobby moderator, I will spend 1-2 hours per day (betwwen 8:30 and 11 pm CEST) on 4-5 day/week monitoring the current 8v8-BA-host. I will kick (and ban if repeated) each and every player, admin and host that misbehaves. I will not make map votes and probably not even play. If a few more moderators can be found that will monitor those hosts, I think we'll be able to get a community back, that misbehaves in the range that is deemed "normal" in spring games.

So if you are a BA maintainer or spring community leader or lobby moderator: please take a position about the question if you want the BA 8v8 host to be monitored, in the hope to save what's left of BA.

[Silentwings]

All that is needed for that are a few trusted lobby moderators to kick them and their hosts if they don't follow the spring community guidelines.

We don't currently have any guidelines (beyond what is specified in EULA) on what should happen inside autohosts or other lobby channels. Instead, we have viewtopic.php?f=16&t=28199, which specifies a deliberate absence of guidelines.

Consequently, lobby moderators don't currently have any power to remove individual users from autohosts - except in cases, such as the SPADS default config, where the autohost owners explicitly give them this power in the same config file as their own admins. (Lobby mods can ban users from the entire server, including bot users.)

It is clear that the same standards that we do maintain on these forums would be absolutely unenforceable inside autohosts - its a very different environment, things happen much faster, the base standard of behaviour is much lower, there is no serious authentication, emotions run much higher, etc. It won't be easy to think of something sane as an autohost equivalent of them, but imo it is clear that this has to happen as a first step; simply look at the difficulties in the past coming from multiple cases of well intentioned but overactive autohost admins.

Even if some generic one-size-fits-all decision could be reached on what autohost admins should actually do, it's great that you're offering to help, but I guess it would take at least 3-4 persons per big host to make it workable. A single person is likely to be either overwhelmed or isolated and brought down by occasional inevitable lapses of judgement. It is not easy to find 3-4 people with sufficient time/interest/maturity. (I am not offering.)

And here's the real killer - multiple attempts by responsible past autohost owners to find a group of trusted players to moderate their own autohosts have not yet resulted in a host that was both (a) free from controversy about its own moderation and (b) that players of 8v8 games actually preferred to use en masse.

So, in reality, "all that is needed" turns out to be rather difficult.

please take a position about the question if you want the BA 8v8 host to be monitored,

My opinion is that it is very difficult to actually do it. I could want it if there was a practical chance of achieving it, which would require that the issues described above were addressed.

in the hope to save what's left of BA.

I don't see any change in player numbers (at any time since Spring 93.0, which coincided with a drop). In my estimation the issue of players rejecting the recent BA releases is likely to be a more serious problem, in the long run. Games without updates are the ones that die out, in my experience.