XTA Development discussion - Page 10

XTA Development discussion

Discuss game development here, from a distinct game project to an accessible third-party mutator, down to the interaction and design of individual units if you like.

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Better then v7?

Poll ended at 08 Nov 2006, 03:04

Yes
23
82%
No
5
18%
 
Total votes: 28

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1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

a damage boost, +1

more to the point, the laser dosnt look or sound beefy. I think thats the primary problem. maybe make the laser look cooler and give it a sound closer to that of the Hllt
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
XTA Developer
Posts: 266
Joined: 24 Aug 2006, 01:33

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

Fast-W:
Well i tryed the flea as a replacment for the freaker/zipper, n had it at 550hpts. There was something interesting there but it did feel wrong, i trust we r all to used to seeing the freaker/zippers in the build tree by now. I will try another veriant with a zipper/freaker with eaquilaly low hpts n do annother zipper/freaker for lvl2 but slightly stronger.

Scouts:
As far as the air scouts go, there radar range is HUGE. Increasing there hitpoint would give them a MASSIVE bonus. The hole point of them is that there cheap n use the radar more than sight. Am i right ? Would a hitpoint beef to pass one MT hit be to much? If the beef have to relait to the radar being nerfed?

Radar:
The radius adjust setting the testers n i have been watching prolly wont be used next release. The icons have a tendancy to overlap each other n confuse the player as i feared last release.

Perhaps a sperate tag for the factorys should be used with the radius adjust turned on.

Bombers:
Also brought to my attention is the lvl1 bombers. Are they being used more than lvl2 bombers now because of there added hitpoints?

Nano Sprey:
Ow n one more thing. I hear from AF in the next release od spring there will be a team color change to the nano sprey. I.e all nanolithing will be the color u choose in the battle room. I dl this just to see, it seems rather fun but is this against XTA ¿ Should the nanolithing be set to green, or do u like the idea of the nano being the color u play as ?

Pyro:
A few arm players sometimes feel at a loss when conbating pyros. Personally i find there ballance correct. But some peeps find them over powering. Should they be slightly nerfed?

Cann:
I will EXPERIMENT with a slight beef to the dps of the cann.

Progress: :!:
I have added a tag to the Raven, it basicly indicates that the raven missles will not explode on contact with other units i.e ravens wont blow each other up if they stand to close! There is still friendly fire, the missles just wont explode on contact with your own units. If a missle should hit the ground under which ur units sit, expect the usual 800 damadge!

This was a big problem for me when i used to play as arm, hopefully this will bring them back into the game more with out player shredding up there keyboards lmao.

Arty:
Also the lvl1 arty got beafed to just outrange the llt's as in ota. This seemed much better! :P Anny thoughts on this? I will try a slower turrat turn rate to conpensate.

Icons:
There has been work on the com icons, n now they look just about perfect. I `think` they look best if u have anti ailiusing turned on, i cant remember what colorblind said now lol The nuke icon has been rectafied on the arm nuke n also added to the emp + neutron.

I am still waiting on FOE to show up with the metal and energy icons!

Vtol:
Before i only set the lvl2 gunships not to attack other vtol, this is now the same for lvl1

Viper:
I added the sniper FX to the viper

You already should know about mygs fighter flight model.

Flak:
I will increase the cloud of the flak guns as currantly the dirt (shrapnul) is much larger than the cloud, this just seems wrong. Perhaps a little darker as well?

As allways post ur ideas n thoughts of ballance issues below. Sorrey for the big read lol

EDIT:

And aGorms load pics as well. Would like a few more dude :P
Last edited by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo on 12 Nov 2006, 03:00, edited 2 times in total.
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rattle
Damned Developer
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Joined: 01 Jun 2006, 13:15

Post by rattle »

Icons:
There has been work on the com icons, n now they look just about perfect. I `think` they look best if u have anti ailiusing turned on, i cant remember what colorblind said now lol The nuke icon has been rectafied on the arm nuke n also added to the emp + neutron.
I think he meant that the icons should get some anti-aliasing, you don't need to turn AA on for that, you do that in your image editing program. I hope you added some borders to the comm icons, they really need them.
The LRPCs etc should get some special icons, or generally everything that goes off like a nuke (or half a nuke) such as fusions etcetera...
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
XTA Developer
Posts: 266
Joined: 24 Aug 2006, 01:33

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

\/312'/ 600|) |>0¡|\|7 1247713 :P

And the boarder for the com icons is rather hard to get as they r so detilaed for an icon. The boarder seems to wipe away the edjes of the icon n can make it harder to see. Ive done a realy good job on the new ones though :lol:
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Noruas
XTA Developer
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 02:58

Post by Noruas »

Fast-W:
What I say with my demanding opinion, uhh Freaker/Zippers are fine, freaker may have lower damage rate for the moment, but nothing too serious. I'm sorry but if Freakers and Zippers were any more weaker, they wouldn't be fast attack(Rush take out single artillery and run), they would just be harassers, you could make a level 1 zipper, and level 2 zipper at two different levels of strength, but that would seem strange? Fleas in Xta were meant to be a high damage unit, with high speed, and good climbing. Hence the Arms fasted and most dangerous unit in swarms, against no flak bases. Why do fleas not get built then? The build time is terrible, which is why the Flea is not seen unless used to spot for snipers!

Scouts:
Air scouts as far as in Ota Strategy, was great for, just spotting where he was, or flying over an unprotected anti air base to never get hit. It also was high flying compared to other Ta Units, which would suggest that it shouldn't be shot down by llts. I thought that the air scout was killed in 2 shots, and had a very good chance of just flying over. So what should we do with the scout, buff its hp to survive another missile, and make it fly higher then bombers. Making it high flying once again demands flak cannon because the speed of which missiles fly are rather slow to the speedy flak. I think Weasels and Jeffys should outrange their instigator/flash allies by a range of 230, that would make them used abit more, I guarantee it, or make them lamely cheaper, so they can just spot the enemy and then die.

Radar:
Just Don't care, i memorize must of where everything is without its need any. :p

Bombers:
I like level 1 bombers, they do excellent against Porcers, in fact, i didn't go level 2, because i didn't need it. I think bombers weapons still need a 33% increase in damage area effect to make them have an actual bang effect when they hit the ground, making them anti cluster too. Level 1 bombers do their job, level 2 may do it better and shoot planes down as well, but as for cost, nay. I never seen a problem with level 2 gunship swarms, why do they keep getting nerfed, Do not nerf them anymore, and make level 1 gunships not target air targets, so fighters must be used as meant to be.

I would say yes, lets do the color thing, i want my pink nano frames, although it may break Xta's tradition? It is fun right? Does it do anything to game play? Does it change the feeling? I then would say no, only approving i am confused. Maybe For Xtaids, because thats where fun starts.


The Pyro is great vs. level 1 units, godly if they just sit, but they are actually very weak against heavier level 2 units, if Arm just could build some just send in planes, or build two hlts, it could solve the problem. But lower their hp by 100 is fine by me, they get that easily in experience.

Cann:
I will EXPERIMENT with a slight beef to the dps of the cann.
The Can, *breathes* my favorite unit, *breathes* is a strange unit indeed. Its cost for Hp is great, but its range is average, and its damage could be almost too weak. But the Leveler, Fire tank for core, has more hp, 3 times higher dmg rate, and moves faster! As for Cans, cant even climb very well anyway. maybe making these two units meet halfway, could fix the problem.

Progress: Exclamation
Good for the Raven, im glad this happened. I was tired of team killing Ravens.
This was a big problem for me when i used to play as arm, hopefully this will bring them back into the game more with out player shredding up there keyboards lmao.

You mean Hammer and Thud, better increase range of stumpy and raider saswell, or kbots will dominate too much over level 1 tanks. Wait Level 1 artillery, i never remembered this.

Vtol:
Hurray! Now I can not do my cheap god strategy of doom.

Flak:
I used to have them both black, but you made the smoke Grey, and i thought it looked funny, maybe bigger smoke will help.
As allways post ur ideas n thoughts of ballance issues below. Sorrey for the big read lol
Glad i can Help, and sorry for the big read.
pintle
Posts: 1762
Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01

Post by pintle »

NOES!

t1 plasma kbot must not outrange llt, or llt will be totally pointless to build. It is already easy to take out an llt with arti kbots as it is.

Pyros dont need nerfing.

Personally i would prefer green nanospray (purely cos i always play as black and it would look weird with black nano...

I like the idea of making can a better climber a lot. Maybe a slight dmg buff is good. I maintain they are very good meat-shield/rpg-style "tank" for mid game offensive with domis and morties. Could somebody fish out a direct comparison btween them and zeus please? I use both units in a very similar way (replace morties/domi with sniper/raven(occaisonally)fidos.

On a total tangent does anybody else think fidos are really hard to use properly?

Im not sure about raven ff solution. Personally i really like how raiders running past ravens can cause a catastrophic base explosion. Just set them to return fire and use a bit of micro; the reload time is so huge on them that you want to choose the target for your volleys anyway.

t1 bombers are teh own. Im so glad they are usuable now. It can be annoying when they appear out of nowhere when you didnt know enemy had air, and ur t2 lab dies, especially as the only way to really stop massed bombers is fighters of your own, but meh, scout ftw, find their air lab and start organising a counter.

air scouts and fast-w are fine. totally fine.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

Fast w: all they needed is their slower turnrate, 4-5 damage nerf and slower regen rate and they are cool. as in, the v8 changes made them balanced.

Air scouts: they have radar? either way, In OTA they were fast enough to avoid most groundfire, and since they have no purpose other than to scout they should be able to at least dodge missles fired from behind and survive 2 missles. one o the biggest use of OTA air was to scout. XTA air scouts get shot down ultra instant. im totally for letting them survive two missles and dodge missles fired from behind them.

Nanospray: its cool feature but I dont like it for XTA much. I always play white, and white nanospray, would probably look like sperm :(

Pyro: IS FINE DAMNATIONS! its not OP, and are EASILY countered with arm gunslingers, fidos, groups of microed rocket kbots, snipers, CRAWLING BOMBS, mines, gunships, and they get chewed up by hlts cuz for a l2 they got ultra weak hp.

Can: Needs beefing. especially the look and sound of its laser.

gunships: should never be nerfed, AA and fighters do the job very cost effectively.

Viper: is really suck for its cost.

mygs new flight model: sounds damn own. now if only fighters could dodge the odd missle ota style..

agorms pics: more more! I posted a fat list of ideas for tips, more excuses for pretty screenshots!

Flea: OMG I NEVER THOUGHT TO USE IT AS A SWARM UNIT
I cant beleive it. they would own so bad becausr they are so small and fast. its like the zipper but even harder to counter. im down with knocking down their buildtime.

l1 arty outranging LLTs: Please, NO.
I agree witha range boost, but still at least 150 shorter than that of the llt.
missles already outrange them. making a tough battle unit outrange them at l1 will do horrible things to balance imo.


oh and by the way, I think nerfing the Spider was the wrong tactic.. I liked it more with its old stats (except its target air ability)...

wouldnt it be cooler to change the spider to:
its old 1800 odd hp.
its new damage and no targeting air
its old cost + 100 odd metal and maybe 500-1000 more buildtime.

then, it wont be redundant at attacking, but it wont be so mass produceable either.
Last edited by 1v0ry_k1ng on 12 Nov 2006, 15:38, edited 1 time in total.
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
XTA Developer
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Joined: 24 Aug 2006, 01:33

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

It does seem that the lvl1 arty is redundant in a way. Perhaps a llt outrange boost would not be so good. If they did wjo would build peewees n rocko's if u can hide back there with hammer n crashers. (twas an interesting test mind u)

They feel so wrong though, i dont remember the last time i used one!

The viper does lack something, but maybe it doesnt, maybe its just to expensive?

The leveler + flea are horrably unballanced atm agreed.

Ivory the vtol scouts have massive radar range, grab a few n press cntrl+R look at the mini map! I went through a few things with Napkin b4 i posted the last `question/concept list` and was suprised. If i was to increase there hpts i would be forced to decrease there radar range to conpensate.
(stronger scouts=less scouts=more fps=YUMMY=HMNNZ¿)
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

if they have massive radar whats the point the l2 radar plane? I thought peepers should be LOS only, hard to hit and dead cheap. the l2 radar plane is the AWACS that flys behind your line providing radar.
Chojin
Posts: 141
Joined: 04 Oct 2006, 11:22

Post by Chojin »

Lol, i don't even know where to start...
I am not sure Ivory_King is talking about XTA v8 at all :-O

The Fast-W got nerfed in v8 already.

Code: Select all

Changed Idle Auto Heal = 5  
Changed Heal time = 60
Changed Weapon damage 34 TO 30 (-4)
Turn rate 866 WAS 1300
Health 700 WAS  750
So you want to make them turn slower, do less damage and lower the regeneration rate... AGAIN?

Bombers are not fine currently:

Code: Select all

Bombers        Level 1        Level 2     2x Level 1
Metal Cost         130            314            260
Energy Cost       5496          11436          10992
Build Time       10155          19277          20310
Health             523            777           1046
Damage             168            215            336
Area of Effect      48             89             96
Different in cruise altitude is 30 btw (220 and 250). With those values available, I don't see why one should build level 2 bombers at all....


Eerm, Pyros have "ultra weak hp" ? Compared to what?

Code: Select all

              Pyro
Metal Cost     347
Energy Cost   2933
Build Time    6250
Health        2240
Also, do Pyros have some kind of special armor against Lasers? A few games ago I saw about ten Pyros running towards a Doomsday Device with sufficient radar support... The DDD killed 2 (!) Pyros before it was burned down.


Spiders "old 2200 odd hp"?

Code: Select all

Health adjustment 1700 NOW 1350hp

You want the air scouts to survive two missiles and even outfly some? I don't understand this discussion about making them so strong...
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

*sigh*

I was reffering to the changed since v7 making zippers fine. didnt it seem a strange coincidence that I was noting changes that had ALREADY HAPPENED!?

however, I never saw that bomber data before.. maybe because i play with an isometric camera, but isnt a diffrence in 30 altittude like, negliable?
l1 bombers feel just right at the moment. maybe the problem is with the l2 version... *snips bomber comment*

2200hp is not much for a l2 close combat unit. battle tanks have around 7000, zeus have around 3600, cans have 5000.

10 pyros defeating a doomsday machine is fine. 7 zeus's, 6 cans or 2 sumos will be able to as well. there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THE PYRO.
You want the air scouts to survive two missiles and even outfly some? I don't understand this discussion about making them so strong...
Okay. its pretty simple. in OTA air scouts were that, they could fly over an enemy installation or along the perimeter of a frontline and gather LOS and radar info. they DODGED most groundfire, which was fine because speed is the aircrafts only method of defence.

In XTA they are probes, one shot units that get destroyed when anything shoots at them. to scout a base you need about 20 of them, and they all get destroyed instantly. this is NOT how it should be. the advantage of air should be is superior scouting. scouts should be difficult to shoot down. they dont need a massive radar, thats what the l2 radar plane is for. scouts are for cheap LOS. how is letting them surivive more than one missle fired at them by increasing their speed slightly "Making them so strong". atm they are retarded.
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AF
AI Developer
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Joined: 14 Sep 2004, 11:32

Post by AF »

I always found a swarm of zippers was better than a swarm of fleas, infact zippers have more hp than fleas...

zippers and freakers where itnended to be lone scouters or swarms of units that rushed past defences. Theye where never intended to pop in blow a defence up and pop out, infact no single lvl 1 unit should be able to take out a lvl 1 defence save the missile towers, without outranging them. If it can do that while inrange of the defence then it belongs at lvl 2.

And as pintle said, dont bother when you can use 4 peewees or AKs for a much better effect, more cost effective too, and if your peewee is blown up you got the other 3.
Ow n one more thing. I hear from AF in the next release od spring there will be a team color change to the nano sprey. I.e all nanolithing will be the color u choose in the battle room. I dl this just to see, it seems rather fun but is this against XTA ¿ Should the nanolithing be set to green, or do u like the idea of the nano being the color u play as ?
No, spring has had support for team coloured nanospray since 0.73b1, there's a reg patch in the dev forum allowing you to turn the feature on, and I've been using this feature without any issues for at least 2 months now, and it pwns. There's a tag in particles.tdf which will make team coloured nanospray impossible for a specific mod, so if you set it to 1 in XTA then all the nanospray would default to green regardless of the users setting.

But right now theres no point discussing it because if you dont like it you can just turn it off and play with the green nanospray.
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FoeOfTheBee
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Joined: 12 May 2005, 18:26

Post by FoeOfTheBee »

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo wrote: I am still waiting on FOE to show up with the metal and energy icons!
All my icons available here:
http://www.unknown-files.net/index.php? ... &dlid=1854
Unpack it and they're in the icons directory. Free to use as long as you don't make money with them.
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
XTA Developer
Posts: 266
Joined: 24 Aug 2006, 01:33

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

Fair play AF, n thanks for the icons FOE. (money; bahahaha!)
pintle
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Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01

Post by pintle »

just sticking my oar in again.

suggestions:

nerf flea build time
make vipers worth building
make t2 bombers significantly better and more cost effective than t1



about that doomsday gettning blown up by pyros.... fort walls, and hlt, even DT would have made it last a lot longer. Regardless it is a defence for taking out heavy, slow moving units, not pyros. Try them cost for cost vs hlts with dt
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Lindir The Green
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Joined: 04 May 2005, 15:09

Post by Lindir The Green »

Then why would anyone build l1 bombers?

Make it so that say 2000 metal of l1 is better at killing bases or armies, but 2000 metal of l2 is better at surgical strikes on fusions and stuff.

Maybe l1 should get a better weapon for its cost, with high AOE, and l2 should get a better weapon than l1, but not as good for its cost. And then give l2 lots of armor and speed, for less damage from AA.

Basically, l1 is for areas with little AA and l2 is for taking out targets in heavily defended areas. But still make AA really cost effective against it...
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

AA should be weakes vs bombers. bombers fly high and rely on armour to defeat AA. fighters are strongest VS bombers. l1 bombers feel like they have the right HP now, the solution lies with:

1) reducing their attack, which will make them suck again
2) increasing their buildtime, will make them harder to mass
3) making them slower/fly lower
4) making the l2 version fly higher
5) reducing its LOS
6) reducing its turnrate
7) increasing the l2 speed or turnrate/
8) increasing its cost.

I figure it should be a mix of 2, 4 and 6. the l1 bomber should have its altitude reduced by 30 (to 200) and the l2 should have it increased slightly (to 260) meriting its higher cost for lower offensive power.

just oppinions.
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
XTA Developer
Posts: 266
Joined: 24 Aug 2006, 01:33

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

I also find the lvl1 bombers curranly ok, but we (noruas and i) have plans on enlarging there attack slash damadge; to make them more anti spam units i.e BOMBERS.

Also heres a few link some of you will find interesting, in relation to my earlyer rantings.

Nano Spray :
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... p?p=143362

Kill/Loss tool (ota style)
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... p?p=143367
(i may be barking up the wrong tree with my post here!)
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aGorm
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Joined: 12 Jan 2005, 10:25

Post by aGorm »

Yo, whens the new version with my screenys in it goona be out? If its not for a few days I'll do a few more and wizz them your way.

Was thinking along these lines:
Farks and Necros have a very powerful nanolathe, can resurect, and when assisting build several times faster than even the commander.

In longer matches (20 minutes +) be sure to build an antinuke structure... Or else! (with sutible picture of a base blowing up in a dramatic fassion...)

Use anphibious l2 tanks and l2 Kbots ability to move underwater to attack from unexpected directions to get the most from their cost.

Any others?

aGorm
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

*thinks carefuly
Loading screen tips Ideas:

Level 2 Spy Kbots can use their cloak and invisibility to radar to deploy close to enemies providing Line of sight and accuracy for long ranged weapons.

Dragons Teeth built by the commanders block missles and some low trajectory weapons, use lines of them to infront of defences and vital structures to minimalize damage

Reclaim structures that become obsolete and factories you no longer need for metal to produce higher technologies

Always make sure that the 2nd or 3rd unit you produce is a combat unit to fend off early rushes

Never attack an opponent where they are strongest, If your opponent makes excessive use of static defences make an opening at the edge of his line and bypass them.

In longer matches (20 minutes +) be sure to build an antinuke structure.

If your opponent is relying upon building a single powerful unit like a popup to defeat you, build energy storage, attack with all your assets and cloak the commander in the middle of the group. Use him to D-gun the powerful unit.

By the time you have a firm economy (15 minute mark) you should be using almost entirely l2 units: they are much more cost efficent.

thuds and hammers can fire in high trajectory for extra damage at the cost of innacuracy versus moving targets.

annihlators and Doomsday machines are very costly, but once contructed are very difficult to remove without artillery.

The commander is the most powerful unit in the game, worth estimated 30,000 metal. He can be used as a bomb, but this is a waste early game as you cant possibly destroy his value in metal with him.

Use anphibious l2 tanks and l2 Kbots ability to move underwater to attack from unexpected directions to get the most from their cost.

Once you have a stable l2 economy, begin reclaiming your metal extractors and replacing them with Moho mines: moho mines require 300 energy to run but extract 6x more metal.

The most cost efficent method of defeating large swarms of gunships or bombers are fighters, l2 fighters especially, as are inexpensive and can quickly react to attacks.

Zippers and freakers can use their speed to out manuver defending units and attack vunerble structures. use the long range and tracking ability of spaced out missle towers and inexpensive l1 Infantry kbots to safegaurd important structures from zippers.

Farks and Necros have a very powerful nanolathe, and on assist build several times faster than even the commander.
+

Crawling bombs are very cheap and can cause massive damage if allowed into range. try simultaniously sending several from diffrent directions to attack a fortification. They are especially useful against swarms of short range units like pyros or infrantry kbots.

The commander can cloak, which although quite expensive on your energy, is very useful at hiding him when he is on low health or attacked by air. remember that radar still can detect a cloaked commander.

although Sumos, Goliaths and Krogoths are very powerful, resist the temptation to send them in alone as it is not cost efficent. always send in these expensive linebreakers with a swarm of weaker units, radar coverage and AA where possible.

Use minelayers to mine metal patches early game to curb your opponents expansion by destroying his construction units and making him paranoid.

always build an anti air unit in the first two minutes, or risk your commander being picked off by a singular gunship.

In team games, use the red bar on the energy and metal meters to set how much excess resources you share to your allies.

If you plan to use your commander as an offensive unit early game, be sure to build energy storage to you can cloak for extended periods.

Use the atlas to move your commander to unexpected locations in team games to build footholds on enemy islands and escape from a doomed base to prolong your defeat. look out for AA!

Arm have the mobile fusion and core have the minifusion. Both are a vital part of the l2 transition and will be needed on a 1 to 1 ratio for moho mines.

Use the arm sniper to goad an opponent to attack from behind his defences, then ambush them with units the counter their strengths.

If you can paralyse an enemy unit with spiders, consider reclaiming it or atlasing it to the commander to be captured. If you paralyse an enemy commander, use an atlas to make a flying bomb.
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