XTA Development discussion

[[KnoX]ElementalGizmo]

@AF

Units builind units, hmnz. Sounds more like an Nanoblobs themed idea to me. Myg for instance feels that the teck tree for Arm is fine, personally im not to sure. I play Cor as i like the rez bots and kbots, with the consturct units being able to build light futions.

Most Arm players poor metal into a light fution if they go kbots first instead of vehicles.

Hmnz, i would only realy want ot change the build tree if this topic was flooded with requests for that matter. Its a big change to game play, still thinking about weather it needs changing tbh.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

arm already are easier to play then core and have mor exotic, useful and flexible units. I dont see any need to remove one of arms few disadvantages.

edit: core are renowned for being xtra rock hard and costly. why does the Bulldog beat the reaper? l2 tanks are supposed to be cores edge. Im totally for giving the reaper a slight buff with the appropriate slight increase in cost to keep the theme running. it dosnt make sense thats core heavy tanks are inferior to arms!

[Chojin]

It dosnt make sense thats core heavy tanks are inferior to arms!

Some stats:

Code: Select all

                      Bulldog  Reaper
Metal Cost               1308    1324
Energy Cost              8383    8535
Build Time              14638   14732
Health                   7867    7310
DPS                       106     103
Range                     420     440
Weapon Velocity           355     365

[pintle]

arm already are easier to play then core and have mor exotic, useful and flexible units. I dont see any need to remove one of arms few disadvantages.

edit: core are renowned for being xtra rock hard and costly. why does the Bulldog beat the reaper? l2 tanks are supposed to be cores edge. Im totally for giving the reaper a slight buff with the appropriate slight increase in cost to keep the theme running. it dosnt make sense thats core heavy tanks are inferior to arms!

if you do go t2 vehicles, reaper is your staple unit, yeah it gets beaten 1v1 by bulldogs, but i have never seen a mass reaper vs bulldog battle. Goliaths and uber artillery give core an edge in straight up tank warfare, and i think upping the cost of the reaper would make going vehicles cripplingly expensive.

The bulldog is the arm's only true meat shield unit. Massed zeus kinda works but not very efficiently, whereas core get sumos, cans, gollies and reapers. Aren't reapers slightly faster than bulldogs? Could be my imagination.

I think the bulldog should stay as is (same with reaper)

P.S. i find arm are harder to play as than core. They have a more extreme risk/reward tradeoff, and the emphasis on offense means that unless you do it right, you are feeding the core war machine metal.

[Lindir The Green]

I think the bulldog should be slightly less powerful than the reaper, because it is really the ARM's ultimate unit, whereas the reaper is for the quick tank when you can't support the resource requirements of bigger units (such as the energy needs of Goliaths.)

[1v0ry_k1ng]

nope, the penetrator is the arm ultimate unit. it dosnt make sense in game plot terms or balance terms that core have weaker uber tanks. i would be 100% up for knocking up the reaper dps to 106 so they are on an even footing. arm already have all the advantages and units. arm harder to play? thats crazy talk! new players can just use microed gangs of snipers (how I learnt to play) for long range anti everything and gunslingers and zues for everything else. the core stuff is all specialised.

[Chojin]

I have a strongly different opinion on that, Ivory King.

Arm -> micro-management is needed
Core -> brute force in masses

[Lindir The Green]

Well, the penetrator is more for long range assaulting when you already have los, but the bulldog is the ARMs ultimate meatshield which can protect those penetrators and give them LOS.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

yes, arm units need micro managemanagement and are overall faster and more hardhitting. it makes sense that core therefore has the heavy assault forces and arm have lighter faster stuff and so that core heavy tank is heavier. but I can see this is a lost cause lol. stumpy + hammerwe etc still need el range bost.

[pintle]

They upped the range of stumpies/raiders in AA and it did pretty much nothing, they need higher dps or health IMO. I would prefer the health buff as it would stop them encroaching upon the role of instis and flashes.

Just to repeat for emphasis, bullies and reapers are FINE!


e:spelling correction

[Lindir The Green]

Another reason I like the bulldogs being heavier (and possibly even better for their cost) than reapers is because otherwise CORE has two tanks heavier than any ARM unit instead of just one, and because then there is more differentiation between the two heavy CORE tanks.

[BigSteve]

+1 pintle
+1 Lindir

[[KnoX]ElementalGizmo]

Okay its kinda like this from what i see.
The Reaper is 2.8% faster (THATS NOT MUCH!) And has a 4.7% increase in weapon range. Now seeming the DPS is "almost" identical (and not really noticeable by this point in the game tbh) The hitpoints for metal ratio works out like this.

Reaper--------------------BullDog

5.52------------------------6.01
(Which is noticeable I.E you are more likely to notice Bulldog spam rather than Reaper)

NOW some more facts:

Reaper--------------------BullDog

reloadtime-------------2--------------------------1.8
weaponvelocity------365-------------------------355
areaofeffect----------64--------------------------64

My annalists

Reload time is relevant to the role of the unit. The bulldog has a faster rate of fire so is more likely to hit faster units. Reaper is slower rate of fire and less likely to hit fast moving targets I.E best used against static defences.

Looking at these figures and con-pairing them to what you would expect. I would Expect that the reaper be slower, cost more, and have a bigger area of effect for its weapon than the Bulldog. This is NOT the case, why is this? And why are bulldogs not used more to counter CORE tanks, if they are better than Reapers?

Arm is heavily based on Energy weapons,which need los for best accuracy. The Triton for instance is faster, more cost effective (6.08 hpts/metal, wish max speed of 2.1, where as Bulls dog has max speed of 1.65)

Occasionally i play as Arm but i dont use Bulldogs unless going through a crush point. (definition = Where the terrain compresses/forces a mass force into a small straight line, with no room to manoeuvre I.E " V " shaped valley). Bulldogs are good for this as when you loose units you slow down LESS (less corpses incasing/slowing down your attacking forces) as you loose LESS units as the Bulldog has MORE hpts than a Triton.

The Bulldogs main use is as a meat shield, and works WONDERS to the players advantage when used correctly. Personally i dont see anything wrong with the currant stats apart form the Reaper's, which could do with a slightly larger area effect of its weapon. This would more than make up for its less efficiently to the Bulldog and move it more into its themed role more appropriately. As an effective anti spammer/siege unit.

What say you XTA'ers ?

[hrmph]

I think its fine as it is. Sure the reaper might be a bit less efficient than the bulldog, but the power of the goliath makes up for that imo.

[Peet]

Yeah, I agree with hrmph.

[pintle]

so.... what about an hp buff for stumpies/raiders?

[[KnoX]ElementalGizmo]

WA! They already have a rangebonus over them !

Speaking of vehicles, the differance between them and kbots isnt that much. Perhaps a 10% decrease of speed and 10% increase of attack or something along those lines. There suppost to be faster over level land and slow over bumpy terrain.

Sorting this however is kinda down to the map and the type maps it uses as well as the mod.



What could be done is slower acceleration speed. But this however will take much desciding, and will take LONG amount of time chatting about it here. Has annyone got anny idea on what/should be done; in a way that makes vehicles realy feel to be in a differant class?

Im not expecting to introduce vehicle changes in the next release. The next update will about FX and sorting out the nuke, so this is kinda a topic that needs to be sorted for the next NEXT update.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

I think its fine as it is. Sure the reaper might be a bit less efficient than the bulldog, but the power of the goliath makes up for that imo.

what the hell? how is that a valid argument? "lol this unit sucks but they have this unit so its okay" I have never seen a golly sent in with a gang of reapers. it dosnt happen. a golly is usually sent in with some l1 for spotting and maybe the commander or necros for repairs, and some aa. theres no NEED to support it. but its so costly, it CANT BE COMPARED to the bulldog. its like saying "lol the can sucks but they got the sumo". dosnt mean anything. musnt balance units like that. because then you just end up with units that nobody uses. like the can. and the reaper.

there is no good reason for arm to have a heavier tanks. the core goliath isnt supposed to be a damage absorbing assault tank. its not suited to that role. with its insane costs, you'll only ever have one at a time in normal games and your whole battleplan will be based upon it. to lose a gollys worth of metal is ultimately crippling. the core heavy tank sucks cuz they get the golly, which is a unit intended for a completely diffrent role. why dosnt the bulldog suck because they get the penetrator, or the panther? who is going to build reapers when they are so much more inefficent than bulldogs? less dps + less health for more cost? nobody in the know, thats for sure. why are core weaker in the area where they ARE SUPPOSED TO BE STRONGEST?
core = heavy frontal assault
arm = microed powerful units: long range jhigh damage fire needing los and meat units to stay alive and provide LOS.
in short: if you look at
a) the fact that arm benefit more from having a meaty unit for LOS than core
b) the core need to be able to sledgehammer because they lack specialised long range weapons
c) the arm have the penetrator, and the core have the golly. both are powerful and exotic. and im pretty sure 2-3 penetrators is alot more useful than a golly if used correctly.
I would suggest to remedy this matter, either reduce the reap cost so it is the same cost efficency as the bulldog, or increase the reaps stats slightly so it is more powerful since IT COSTS MORE. the reap should be SLOWER than the bulldog. thats the theme with every other core unit that has an arm equivalent. slower, heavier, more powerful, more costly. it seems silly to reverse it for the battletank.

@raiders/stumpies, yeah I like the hp buff. do a test where they keep their range at 370 and give them 100-150 HP boost?

[pintle]

core = heavy frontal assault
arm = microed powerful units: long range jhigh damage fire needing los and meat units to stay alive and provide LOS.
in short: if you look at
a) the fact that arm benefit more from having a meaty unit for LOS than core
b) the core need to be able to sledgehammer because they lack specialised long range weapons
c) the arm have the penetrator, and the core have the golly. both are powerful and exotic. and im pretty sure 2-3 penetrators is alot more useful than a golly if used correctly.

OH EM JEE

I bite my tounge a lot at your balance suggestions/unit critiques, but this just takes the biscuit. Sending a solo golly is dumb. Any player worth their salt will, by the time you get a gollie up and to his base, have an econ that can support cloaking a commander for the 5 seconds it takes to dgun it. if i use goliaths then they will be in a group of 2-5 with at least 2 artillery behind them, which means i am using them as a meat shield to support, and spot for, the "specialist long range weapons" (not to mention dominators, morties, and their merl-equivalent that i forget the name of.

Reapers are significantly faster, and faster to build, than gollies, and a pack of 3 or more in mid game can be utterly devastating, especially when they are spotting for core's infinitely superior artillery. But then again core dont have specialised long range weaponry... like a mobile bertha that can fire high trajectory.

Yes penetrators are lethal, but they are expensive, slow to build, and move at about the same speed (if not slower) as a golly, and take about 5% of the punishment. Not to mention that jamming them and keeping them behind a skirmish line is somewhat comprimised by an intelligent player noticing where the Blue laser of death beam is coming from and firing his (much cheaper popup or two) at it.

I could go on but i cant be bothered, you are the only person who has complained about this issue, and i have been seriously owned by people like mong/paulada using reapers/levellers/artillery.

I just read through that post, and it is more than a little antagonistic. I really don't want to instigate flamage and derail this thread, but i honestly completely believe that reaper/bulldog balance is fine. You never see the good hardcore arm players spamming bullies, cos there are better ways to spend your metal..... Actually im struggling to think of good arm players apart from Myg, who seems to love panthers too much to consider building bulldogs apart from in the direst circumstances

[[KnoX]ElementalGizmo]

Hmnz,
I think i agree with Pintle on this one