Oy,
I agree that units hurting themselves needs to be fixed, but I happen to enjoy using Cans, Pennetrators, Mines, etc. every once in a while... (aka, UH, XTA, AA, etc.
Do we really want to go back to endless MT Forests, Flashes, Slashers, and Super Hawk Stacks (and maybe 2 or 3 other units...), not to mention burst bombing and resource sparking... ugh.
OTA Mod Development
Moderator: Moderators
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Neuralise, your snide comment only reflects on your own intelligence.
If TA really was as bad as you like to think; Spring would never exist. I for one, can't stand AA or XTA; I think the balance is shocking, and they are completely missing what made TA so good in the first place; but I don't go yelling it from the rooftops, nor bothering other people in XTA/AA threads, because it's none of my business. If people want to play that way, fine. Who am I to ruin their fun? Who are you to?
If TA really was as bad as you like to think; Spring would never exist. I for one, can't stand AA or XTA; I think the balance is shocking, and they are completely missing what made TA so good in the first place; but I don't go yelling it from the rooftops, nor bothering other people in XTA/AA threads, because it's none of my business. If people want to play that way, fine. Who am I to ruin their fun? Who are you to?
Honestly I beleive what has kept TA going all these years is its mod-ability; maps, units, balancers, recorder, unit packs, etc. If OTA remained as-is and never could have been changed or modified in any way, I doubt the game would even still be played except by the most dedicated small cadre of players. TA's potential was always in what could be done to change it, including adjusting its balance...
Perhaps I am off, but stop by File/Unit Universe or TAMEC and look at all the post OTA creative work that still goes on to this day.
Perhaps I am off, but stop by File/Unit Universe or TAMEC and look at all the post OTA creative work that still goes on to this day.
I have complete respect for Warlord Zsinj and Molloy and everyone else should too, unlike some people, I do know who they are and where they come from.
That said, my comment was meant to be taken seriously, I played OTA for the longest time with the best of cheating ais in skrimish mode long before I had a reliable and constant internet connection.
However, upon actually getting an internet connection and playing real people on the zone, I found out that all the super cool Core Contigency units were not even used because they were not competively sound. This to me was rediculous, why even offer me the unit if it makes me lose, and furthermore, why even offer me the unit when there is clearly a supieror unit to use in place of it in all situations.
However, it wasn't all despair, I found people playing "ground wars." Which ruled out all those stacked hawks and atrocious line bombing, and generally made the game a little more win-win, than win-getting raped by people with too much free time.
So, if you take out all the units that don't work, it would make the learning and playing experience of the game better, you would want this mod to grow right? To have more people than any other mod? So make it user friendly and practical!
That said, my comment was meant to be taken seriously, I played OTA for the longest time with the best of cheating ais in skrimish mode long before I had a reliable and constant internet connection.
However, upon actually getting an internet connection and playing real people on the zone, I found out that all the super cool Core Contigency units were not even used because they were not competively sound. This to me was rediculous, why even offer me the unit if it makes me lose, and furthermore, why even offer me the unit when there is clearly a supieror unit to use in place of it in all situations.
However, it wasn't all despair, I found people playing "ground wars." Which ruled out all those stacked hawks and atrocious line bombing, and generally made the game a little more win-win, than win-getting raped by people with too much free time.
So, if you take out all the units that don't work, it would make the learning and playing experience of the game better, you would want this mod to grow right? To have more people than any other mod? So make it user friendly and practical!
Last edited by Neuralize on 16 Feb 2006, 06:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Doomweaver
- Posts: 704
- Joined: 30 Oct 2004, 14:14
Re: OTA Mod Development
The current metal system sucks, it's probably the only gameplay issue I have with spring. It also makes it harder for noobs.Molloy wrote: I know the engine doesn't necessarily allow all these things but If we could come up with a topic listing the mods shortfalls then we could go about having them addressed one by one. And eventually end up with an OTA that's like Cavedog's TA.
Other than that, why would you want to make spring any more like Cavedog's TA?
Re: OTA Mod Development
The current metal system is versatile.Doomweaver wrote:The current metal system sucks, it's probably the only gameplay issue I have with spring. It also makes it harder for noobs.Molloy wrote: I know the engine doesn't necessarily allow all these things but If we could come up with a topic listing the mods shortfalls then we could go about having them addressed one by one. And eventually end up with an OTA that's like Cavedog's TA.
Other than that, why would you want to make spring any more like Cavedog's TA?
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DopeFishhh
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 23 Dec 2004, 05:13
The collision system at the moment doesn't do any friend/foe checking, it just checks to see if it hits something and if it does it damages it.
Though i have a work around idea that would improve MT and samson groups. Basically you make the missile aim upwards so it clears the ground units around it (and anything else like wreckage) then it turns and guides towards the target like normal. I haven't looked at weapons in spring much but either you get it to vlaunch like the merls or you enforce a minimum firing angle or something like that to get it to fire upwards towards the sky before turning.
Though i have a work around idea that would improve MT and samson groups. Basically you make the missile aim upwards so it clears the ground units around it (and anything else like wreckage) then it turns and guides towards the target like normal. I haven't looked at weapons in spring much but either you get it to vlaunch like the merls or you enforce a minimum firing angle or something like that to get it to fire upwards towards the sky before turning.
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Please be aware that this is your opinion, and not the entire opinion of the OTA community. Infact, your opinion is actually a rare one, especially given that such "groundwars" never picked up.However, it wasn't all despair, I found people playing "ground wars." Which ruled out all those stacked hawks and atrocious line bombing, and generally made the game a little more win-win, than win-getting raped by people with too much free time.
I am quite happy with those changes. I have learnt that while they are "bugs" that were never intended by Cavedog, they are nonetheless indisposable as tactics in Total Annihilation. They sort of become the finer "nuances" or the "cream" which seperates the good from the best.
I'm not suggesting these things become part of XTA and AA. I'm purely interested in these aspects for use in the OTA mod. The number of people playing Cavedog's TA online is still pretty high. There are usually a good 40 people on TA Zone. And 50 or so on Phoenix Worx. I'd love to see these people get more involved.
While the modablity of TA was no doubt a large aspect of extending its offline playability it sadly never really took off in the multiplayer arena. 95% of people who played TA online never even tried the mods. They were perfectly prepared to play the game as it was.
I mean, you watch the demos on TADRS and you'll see a staggering level of play. They use techniques like line bombing and nano blocking to facilitate far more outlandish strategies than would normally be viable. Look at someone like PRO_Tiptushi and he can go air first on many land maps. It's practically impossible to pull of for a mere mortal. And then you should see his Invader bombing, another "bug" but a fantastically skillful one to use well.. it's poetry in motion. Enough gushing from me.. just watch this demo to see what I'm talking about.
It would be good for all the mods to get the pro players more involved. Uberhack used to be a mess before the demo recorder. Then all the pros like Dark Rain and NJ THUG (is that right, my memory is hazy on the names) started making demos and taking part in the suggestion process. It ironed out a ton of inconsistencies that BSR wasn't aware of because he was a modder more than a highly competitive player.
I'm just saying it might be good for AA, UH, XTA and Spring in general to have a faithful OTA modification. If you bring in the people who have been testing OTA balance for years and stretching it to breaking point then they might be able to do the same for the other mods.
One things for sure, we need to get more demos up on GameRecordings.org. It'd be a good method of examinging the balance issues. I think I'll apply to be a reviewer once I get a little better at AA.
While the modablity of TA was no doubt a large aspect of extending its offline playability it sadly never really took off in the multiplayer arena. 95% of people who played TA online never even tried the mods. They were perfectly prepared to play the game as it was.
I mean, you watch the demos on TADRS and you'll see a staggering level of play. They use techniques like line bombing and nano blocking to facilitate far more outlandish strategies than would normally be viable. Look at someone like PRO_Tiptushi and he can go air first on many land maps. It's practically impossible to pull of for a mere mortal. And then you should see his Invader bombing, another "bug" but a fantastically skillful one to use well.. it's poetry in motion. Enough gushing from me.. just watch this demo to see what I'm talking about.
It would be good for all the mods to get the pro players more involved. Uberhack used to be a mess before the demo recorder. Then all the pros like Dark Rain and NJ THUG (is that right, my memory is hazy on the names) started making demos and taking part in the suggestion process. It ironed out a ton of inconsistencies that BSR wasn't aware of because he was a modder more than a highly competitive player.
I'm just saying it might be good for AA, UH, XTA and Spring in general to have a faithful OTA modification. If you bring in the people who have been testing OTA balance for years and stretching it to breaking point then they might be able to do the same for the other mods.
One things for sure, we need to get more demos up on GameRecordings.org. It'd be a good method of examinging the balance issues. I think I'll apply to be a reviewer once I get a little better at AA.
In the summer of 2004, I played with a group every weekend on remixed version of Lushaven, our games were 5vs5 and we never were short of people to play groundwars, I went back there two months ago and the same game went on every weekend, full. 
Obviously we're splitting hairs on what's a feature and what's a bug. I personally would rather the game be based on tactics, than cute little tricks that make units act like another unit, or mutiples of that unit.
Obviously we're splitting hairs on what's a feature and what's a bug. I personally would rather the game be based on tactics, than cute little tricks that make units act like another unit, or mutiples of that unit.
Go ahead, i will even test it.
despite i think ota balance was unexistent, many units didnt pay its cost, and there were units WAY overpowered, let alone core lvl1 kbots... oh poor kbots..
For the record, i dont think making such changes will take TA players to turn into Sping.
In generall, that just brakes the game (yes, its the other way around, you wanting to "emulate" OTA in Spring brakes spring and not the oposite, moslty bc spring has surpassed ota, by A LOT now).
But finally dont see anything wrong with you wanting those things back, (of course, NEVER would like that in xta)... (welll maybe as a mutator.. to realize what a mess it was, and how it added to balance issues :p (i dont HAVE to explain why.. do i?).
note: if you want excellent gameplay and strategies, learn xta.
despite i think ota balance was unexistent, many units didnt pay its cost, and there were units WAY overpowered, let alone core lvl1 kbots... oh poor kbots..
For the record, i dont think making such changes will take TA players to turn into Sping.
In generall, that just brakes the game (yes, its the other way around, you wanting to "emulate" OTA in Spring brakes spring and not the oposite, moslty bc spring has surpassed ota, by A LOT now).
yep, the best way to get all back, with bugs and all is play ota... ugh.. :)You want the old bugs? Go play OTA.
n00b :DI enjoy Spring but I don't like XTA,
But finally dont see anything wrong with you wanting those things back, (of course, NEVER would like that in xta)... (welll maybe as a mutator.. to realize what a mess it was, and how it added to balance issues :p (i dont HAVE to explain why.. do i?).
note: if you want excellent gameplay and strategies, learn xta.