(in-) engine menu

[Funkencool]

The only disagreement we're having here is how elaborate the menu should be. Honestly that shouldn't even matter right now.

All I want is the APIs/tools necessary to work on my personal project. It doesn't have to be default or anything like that; but I am hitting roadblocks and detours that other projects as broad as mine will likely encounter. These are problems that should be dealt with regardless of your opinion.

It is not even clear how the menu-game will be bundled with engine

A small suggestion:

Have a default script file that will run said menu if engine is being started with no command line parameters. That will allow games to easily replace the menu with customized versions.

I assumed it would be something like this. The engine would supply:
- A menu-game
- A menu-map
- A script to start them
I believe abma mentioned something similar.
It would allow a developer to supply their own to replace springs default with it's own menu They could then distribute the engine as if it were a game if they wanted.

[8611]

There should be a Lua-menu. - okay.
The menu-Lua will be in a mod. - okay.
To start the engine currently a map is required, too. - okay.
menu-game & menu-map are set in a startscript, as is usual. - okay.

Those things are obvious now - can we please progress?
For example to what the menu should look/work.
Or how the menus/contents of games will be integrated.

Such "details" are the only parts left worth disagreeing over. It would be nice if people tried to discuss more precise.
Not constructive when every attempt at detailing is brushed off with something vague that can mean dozen different things.

If gamedevs have to distribute their own engine/installers because of need for a unique startscript/config (that differs in one line) then that is not a solution. (It is the failure that happens when no solution is found.)

My view is at https://github.com/spring/menu-game.sdd/issues/1

[Funkencool]

If gamedevs have to distribute their own engine/installers because of need for a unique startscript/config (that differs in one line) then that is not a solution. (It is the failure that happens when no solution is found.)

Hmm you seem to be very pessimistic. I was only stating a solution on how spring.exe could launch straight into a single games menu. Honestly I don't see any other way since there is only one executable. Distributing games either as a portable archive or with an installer is not a failure; I think the game industry has proved that. Also of note is the fact that I have 10 different spring engines in my spring folder, why would it be so bad if each was different game ( game controls engine version anyway)

I'll use zero-k as an example.
With this method they could easily modify the default spring archive to launch straight into a hypothetical in game lobby. They could then distribute this through steam. After which steam users would not have to open a menu containing other games to access the game they truly want.
Non steam users could simply download an installer ( like they do now ) which contained a modified spring engine that ran only zero-k. No more ZKL.exe and spring.exe, just Zero-k.exe.

[smoth]

If gamedevs have to distribute their own engine/installers because of need for a unique startscript/config (that differs in one line) then that is not a solution. (It is the failure that happens when no solution is found.)

Game devs should do that and keep that copy as a portable spring install. It should include the engine version they need and all of the maps that the game requires.

[Funkencool]

Game devs should do that and keep that copy as a portable spring install. It should include the engine version they need and all of the maps that the game requires.

It would also mean the springsettings.txt, hotkeys, and infolog would be that games alone. The entire spring environment could be controlled by the game dev and that is a huge plus in my opinion. They could even compile there own game (spring) with minimal configuring. One line to make a game unique from other spring games sounds good to me.

[smoth]

I am a windows user and in order for them to compile it would mean they have the whole download my source stuff to deal with. I cannot speak to 'nix stuff but as far as windows I feel a zipped archive or installer is the way to go.

[gajop]

My thoughts on this:

• A default, game agnostic lobby is needed. The default shouldn't be a "game picker".
• Branding/customizing is important and should be at the core of the design of any general purpose lobby.
• Creating one-fits-all UIs is hard, so some sort of source copying and editing will be needed, but ideally it should mostly be done via configurations/APIs and there should be a solid amount of libraries/frameworks that solve hard problems so creating custom lobbies is simplified. Example libraries/frameworks: chiliui, liblobby, i18n, with more to come.
• Starting custom lobbies should be done with a spring.exe and a startscript. Creating shortcuts that launch the given startscript is trivial.
• Don't remove existing functionality until after a replacement is added

Offtopic: Well developed games should indeed have separate distribution, but the "Spring default" should be to assume multiple game/engine support.

[8611]

Hmm you seem to be very pessimistic. I was only stating a solution on how spring.exe could launch straight into a single games menu

https://github.com/spring/menu-game.sdd does that look like the zero-K github? Is it the BA github?
It is on the spring github and therefore something for all games.
Any talk about making something for just one game/making ("zip everything" installers) misses the point.
If the idea is that games should be distributed on its own anyway, with stupid shortcuts or even modified engines (wtf) then there is nothing to cooperate about.
That would not be a discuss on the spring forum, you can take it to zero-k forum or whereever.

Honestly I don't see any other way since there is only one executable.

Different startscripts -> different menus. Read https://github.com/spring/menu-game.sdd/issues/1

A default, game agnostic lobby is needed.

For SP that is not possible because games have too different ideas of singleplayer. Not ideas as in "theoretic maybe blabla" but things that were already done/can be done. Details are now enough in thread or look at the SP menus that already exist(ed) to see their differences.
Even if some standards could be agreed, it would be more limited (in design etc) than any menu made specifically for one game.

The default shouldn't be a "game picker".

Will you also explain why?

Branding/customizing is important and should be at the core of the design of any general purpose lobby.

That is backwards. If you want really customized SP menus that fit the games (not just swapping some pictures or whatever) then each game will need its own singleplayer menu.
Since this is spring, with multiple games (it is assumed that players will play the SP of different games, just as they play multiple games in MP) and so a way to switch between those menus is needed.
If you disagree it with the "multiple games" part and want solutions for just one game take it to forum of that game.

[gajop]

A default, game agnostic lobby is needed.

For SP that is not possible because games have too different ideas of singleplayer.

It's possible of course. Most major Spring games can be played in game-agnostic lobbies. It's possible to create lobbies that can launch SP skirmish, MP skirmish and SP/MP missions in a way that will suit all currently popular Spring games. I also doubt we can't think of a way to extend it to any new games that will come along.

The default shouldn't be a "game picker".

Will you also explain why?

It's better for the default to be something usable (like a default lobby). Games can launch their own lobbies (that they might develop) directly if they want to.

Branding/customizing is important and should be at the core of the design of any general purpose lobby.

That is backwards. If you want really customized SP menus that fit the games (not just swapping some pictures or whatever) then each game will need its own singleplayer menu.

It's important to give games the ability to do so (create their own lobby) if they ever grow to the point that they can afford the development time to do that, but also, it's crucial to have a good default lobby that can be used as the default for the games that won't have one.

[8611]

Do you not understand that some games want to do their own singleplayer menu?
And still be "part of spring", without silly game-installers?
Read middle of https://github.com/spring/menu-game.sdd ... t-76071511 why.
With a one-fits-all-menu missions are limited to something that works with some to-be-agreed standard
(...)
On other hand, a game-tailored menu is free to do what the creator imagines.

Multiplayer lobbies would also be more userfriendly if made for just one game, but the differences are imo not as huge as in SP. For MP one-fits-all is a "acceptable evil."

[smoth]

Do you not understand that some games want to do their own singleplayer menu?

Yes he does, and this menu he is proposing is optional.

[gajop]

Do you not understand that some games want to do their own singleplayer menu?

Yes...? I've mentioned lobby "branding", "customization", as well as games rolling their own in multiple posts so far.

And still be "part of spring", without silly game-installers?

And yet I don't think I've mentioned game-installers anywhere.

a one-fits-all-menu
VS
a game-tailored menu

This is the balance we should strive to achieve by offering a default solution and allowing people to extend or replace it with whatever custom thing their game might need, if they want to and have the time, which is certainly not the case for most new games.

Multiplayer lobbies would also be more userfriendly if made for just one game, but the differences are imo not as huge as in SP. For MP one-fits-all is a "acceptable evil."

I completely disagree. SP and MP can basically be the same content, and in recent years that has been proven true more and more with a huge amount of games offering co-op.
Since WC3 people have been playing missions online (far more creative stuff than what is possible in Spring atm), so I'm also not sure why you think that format can be standardized (it's certainly something I'll try, regardless of the derailment).

[8611]

Do you not understand that some games want to do their own singleplayer menu?

Yes...? I've mentioned lobby "branding", "customization", as well as games rolling their own in multiple posts so far.

And still be "part of spring", without silly game-installers?

And yet I don't think I've mentioned game-installers anywhere.

Then please explain how you image the player to access the menus of different games.
Because I understand your "shortcuts" as clickable icons on desktop:

Starting custom lobbies should be done with a spring.exe and a startscript. Creating shortcuts that launch the given startscript is trivial.

SP and MP can basically be the same content, and in recent years that has been proven true more and more with a huge amount of games offering co-op.

I already wrote in previous threads that "[controll over] maps and teams matter for regular games, too.", not just for missions.
However ultimately that would need some game<-->lobby communiation, that is imo outside scope of this thread.

[abma]

Then please explain how you image the player to access the menus of different games.

sth. like: menu point "games", i.e. select the game "ba", click "switch to ba". the same as it works with the "launcher". only difference to the launcher basicly is, that there are a lot of other menu entries, for examples see the first post in this thread.

[8611]

I see no examples in first post of this thread.

sth. like: menu point "games", i.e. select the game "ba", click "switch to ba". the same as it works with the "launcher". only difference to the launcher basicly is, that there are a lot of other menu entries

So basically:

There is the list of games with "good singleplayer", in corner is the option to setup games in the one-fits-all way:

[abma]

yep, but this has low priority. to replace the current hard-coded menu is much more important. its "- etc.etc."

[8611]

Why this strange priority and why can not both be discussed...
With no good way to actually bring the stuff to players in foreseeable-ish future, continuing with singleplayer content does to me not seem worthwhile.

[Super Mario]

yep, but this has low priority. to replace the current hard-coded menu is much more important. its "- etc.etc."

Replace the hard-coded bits with lua yes?

[smoth]

I feel the thread has lost direction.

• Is this about replacing the current menu that is displayed when spring starts?
• Is this about creating a menu for spring games to run after they are started?

[abma]

Is this about replacing the current menu that is displayed when spring starts?

yes

Is this about creating a menu for spring games to run after they are started?

it doesn't make sense to start the menu if the game wasn't started via the menu. it depends on how it was started.


imo there is nothing to discuss atm, some work has to be done first before talking more.