Chaff

[Jools]

As you all know, aircraft in spring already have the ability to emit flares as a way of decoying missiles that use IR-guidance mechanisms for homing into target. But how about implementing chaff countermeasures for radar guidance ones? Would it be possible?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure)

Maybe it could work as a gadget with a new unit command. when it is executed, units that have a radar dot but no body are created. That would make missiles target those decoy dots instead of real target. Would that work?

[smoth]

As you all know, aircraft in spring already have the ability to emit flares as a way of decoying missiles that use IR-guidance mechanisms for homing into target. But how about implementing chaff countermeasures for radar guidance ones? Would it be possible?

a spring missile doesn't home in based on radar, it tracks the unit, there is no difference. I don't understand your question.

[Jools]

a spring missile doesn't home in based on radar, it tracks the unit, there is no difference. I don't understand your question.

Well, since spring already has flares (http://springrts.com/wiki/Gamedev:UnitDefs#Flares), it must be concluded that the tracking is heat-seeking based. That's how flares work. The flare tries to match the heat signature of a jet engine and by doing that decoy the missile to another target.

Chaff is another form of counter-measure that's based on radar tracking. We don't have that yet.

[smoth]

you are making assumptions.

[LordMuffe]

isn´t flare just a name for the mechanic without really trying to resemble real world flares? I mean, you don't see flares when the unit uses them, guided missiles just lose the target with a certain chance if o remember correctly.

[Jools]

Yes, flare is a countermeasure for heat seeking missiles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flare_(countermeasure)

[smoth]

Stop using real world names, this is not a sim, it is an RTS engine which broadly abstracts the real world.

the player sees icons, the missile is a homing type, there is only 1 type of homing that can be specified in the weapon def. The missile MORE THAN LIKELY tracks a UNITID until the unit id fires flares.

the unit FIRING THE FLARES DOES NOT CARE what method of tracking the missile uses. I don't even think the unit or missile know if the unit is a blip!

Odds are there is 1 method.

spring does not give a shit about radar or units, it has been a long standing point of aggravation that we cannot stop our units from firing at radar blips without adding a damn gadget. Maybe that isn't even possible, I dunno, I have not seen it done yet.

So, go read the spring source, see how the homing actually works. Flares or chaff I suspect in the end would just be some meta crap that you implement via a gadget.

[FLOZi]

isn´t flare just a name for the mechanic without really trying to resemble real world flares? I mean, you don't see flares when the unit uses them, guided missiles just lose the target with a certain chance if o remember correctly.

Yes.

tbh whole system is pretty crappy.

[Jools]

So, go read the spring source, see how the homing actually works. Flares or chaff I suspect in the end would just be some meta crap that you implement via a gadget.

You're doing it the wrong way, you're putting the horse before the carriage. Go instead and observe the real world and then make corresponding changes to the spring source.

That said, I think we can avoid a philosophical debate about the mission of the spring engine. I merely outlined a new type of counter-mechanism for fighters and asked whether it would make any sense as a game mechanic. I already know how to create units, I suppose you could make some kind of chaff-type unit that can be dispensed when enemy fires missiles at you. I just wonder if it would be a good mechanic.

[LordMuffe]

i dont really see an advantage compared to the existing method of flares. and if you want different types of missiles (for example one heat(flare) one radar(chaff))so that some units can kill one sort, but not the other type: isn´t that possible by adding an invissible weapon with interceptor=1; and the missile type which it is allowed to counter with targetable=1; ?

wouldn´t look like the real chaff, but you would have two types off counters for two types of homing missiles.

[smoth]

So, go read the spring source, see how the homing actually works. Flares or chaff I suspect in the end would just be some meta crap that you implement via a gadget.

You're doing it the wrong way, you're putting the horse before the carriage. Go instead and observe the real world and then make corresponding changes to the spring source.

This isn't a debate. i am telling you what the flares in spring are. You want to call it something else be my guest. Don't try and FORCE the engine to alter the generic way flares work. The engine is not the place for it. In the future they may have anti-chaff systems, now what!??! OMG

want tal talk about observing the real world in a damn RTS engine, what the fuck. Let's start with the fact that modern M1 abrams can shoot farther than most of us can effectively see. it can shoot targets while moving. the days of shooting close enough to tell what the other guy looks like died in WWII. Hell most of the survivers are few who can even remember those days. Modern real warfare is not fun. Hell most games have sniper rifles with fucking carbine ranges. Don't even get me started on the difference between a designated marksman and a fucking sniper.

Nah bruh, I look at realistic shit all day long, it is a major part of what I do to try and make my giant unrealistic robots more real. What fucking game are you even planning on applying this tech in? we have no modern games, hell for all we know in total annihilation that tech is 1000 years old and massively obsolete. Shit dude, if we did it where it was realistic, we could destroy whole tank convoys with fucking IEDs and rivers would suddenly halt all advances.

i mean, really you can do what you want but I have no idea why you think this is even a RELAVENT argument when we have machines built out of green glowy shit that can construct anything BUT a godamn nano bomb? hell why do the plans stored in the cons even SURVIVE an EMP? If the unit is that well shielded it would shrug the entire force of the magnetic wave. At which point, I gotta ask why are we still using fucking nukes and radar? why not sonic imaging, metallic and heat sensors? One of the best and most intelligent additions was fucking seismic detection. Why no project has units designed to generate false positives is beyond me.

Meh.

[Google_Frog]

As you all know, aircraft in spring already have the ability to emit flares as a way of decoying missiles that use IR-guidance mechanisms for homing into target. But how about implementing chaff countermeasures for radar guidance ones? Would it be possible?

Yes. You can do a lot of things to projectiles. See this section: http://springrts.com/wiki/Lua_SyncedCtrl#Projectiles

spring does not give a shit about radar or units, it has been a long standing point of aggravation that we cannot stop our units from firing at radar blips without adding a damn gadget. Maybe that isn't even possible, I dunno, I have not seen it done yet.

I have a gadget which blocks firing at radar. It is a bit messy so PM me if you are actually interested.

[smoth]

spring does not give a shit about radar or units, it has been a long standing point of aggravation that we cannot stop our units from firing at radar blips without adding a damn gadget. Maybe that isn't even possible, I dunno, I have not seen it done yet.

I have a gadget which blocks firing at radar. It is a bit messy so PM me if you are actually interested.

Sure, do you want it cleaned up?

[knorke]

isn´t flare just a name for the mechanic without really trying to resemble real world flares? I mean, you don't see flares when the unit uses them,

You do see flares when unit uses them.
For example: fly a arm_hawk aircraft over an enemy arm_defender turret in XTA to see it drop red flares.

guided missiles just lose the target with a certain chance if o remember correctly.

Not just "lose" the target but: The missile has a random chance of changing its target from the unit to the flare.

Code: Select all

	if (gs->randFloat() < owner->unitDef->flareEfficiency) {
CMissileProjectile* missile = *mi;
missile->SetTargetObject(this);

Since the flares are objects with physics that float in air, their effectiveness also depends a bit on usual spring physics: If the flare is too near aircraft then the missile might "accidently" still hit or cause damage by AOE. So things like flareDropVector etc matter a bit too.

[LordMuffe]

hm, might be wrong, since its been nearly a decade since then, but in the beginning, flares had no visual sign that they were in effect. but its nice they have it these days.

[100Gbps]

As you all know, aircraft in spring already have the ability to emit flares as a way of decoying missiles that use IR-guidance mechanisms for homing into target. But how about implementing chaff countermeasures for radar guidance ones? Would it be possible?

Yep, if you manage to scale plane' silhouette to be a bird or smaller on the radar station screen. Or bomb/EMP the radar before it's too late. Or teleport the plane when chased by a modern rocket with an active tracking system in its head.

Anyway in other ways no ...

[Google_Frog]

spring does not give a shit about radar or units, it has been a long standing point of aggravation that we cannot stop our units from firing at radar blips without adding a damn gadget. Maybe that isn't even possible, I dunno, I have not seen it done yet.

I have a gadget which blocks firing at radar. It is a bit messy so PM me if you are actually interested.

Sure, do you want it cleaned up?

Cleaning up would be good and I saw a few simple things which could be done. The main problem is with the messiness of the method. I made a new topic http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32405