Couple of Questions. Possible Game Engine Move....

[FireDem0n]

Hey there! I am one of the two head developers of a Mod on ModDB called Elysian Fields. It is a C&C 3 to Halo Conversion mod. Considering that the Sage Engine (The Engine that the C&C 3 game is based off of) is somewhat limited...we found the Spring Engine rather interesting and have a couple of questions about it. So...here are those questions.

1:
How much can the graphics be customized? Those the Spring Engine looks good...it does not seem up-to par with current game standards (No offense intended). Is it at all possible to improve the graphical features of the Spring Engine? And if so, where would the file(s) be located in the Spring Engine Build/Source Code?

2:
What are the Poly Counts for models in the Spring Engine? If it is possible to improve the graphics of the Spring Engine, would it also be possible to improve the Poly Count of each model (Units, Buildings and so on)?

3:
As of right now, would it be worth our teams time to transfer over to the Spring Engine from the Sage Engine?

4:
And number four, can the Spring Engine be made to work with better file types that are exported from 3ds Max. Our team is mainly using 3ds Max 9 right now. Would we still need to downgrade to 3ds Max 7? Or is there way we can stick with 3ds Max 9? And while on the topic of Modeling, How does the Animation export process work? Can custom animations be exported and used with the Spring Engine?

We are hoping that we will be able to move over to the Spring Engine but that depends on the questions above. Please let us know what the answer to these questions are as soon as anyone can.

Thank you for your time.

FireDem0n

[smoth]

t the Sage Engine (The Engine that the C&C 3 game is based off of) is somewhat limited.

sage isn't that limited, cnc3 is.

1:
How much can the graphics be customized?

the graphics are just models and textures...

Those the Spring Engine looks good...it does not seem up-to par with current game standards (No offense intended). Is it at all possible to improve the graphical features of the Spring Engine?

You can write a lua shader to raise the contrast and blur everything if you want cnc style "graphics."

And if so, where would the file(s) be located in the Spring Engine Build/Source Code?

you would write a lua shader, well probably not you, your team would needs someone competent in opengl.

2:
What are the Poly Counts for models in the Spring Engine?

Poly count is defendant on unit count for your project.

If it is possible to improve the graphics of the Spring Engine, would it also be possible to improve the Poly Count of each model (Units, Buildings and so on)?

You talk a lot about poly count, I am going to presume from here forward that you are not very technical. Please see the above answer again. Poly count is an arbitrary decision based on the complexity of the shaders you want to use and the unit count you want. Shaders being how most games get their "graphics" as you call them

3:
As of right now, would it be worth our teams time to transfer over to the Spring Engine from the Sage Engine?

IMO, it isn't worth your time to do a halo mod. Microsoft has shown in the past that they have no issue shutting down halo projects. So I think the project is a waste of time on any engine. However, as a word of PERSONAL advice, your time is yours to spend how you want. Don't look for others to dictate your hobby.

4:
And number four, can the Spring Engine be made to work with better file types that are exported from 3ds Max. Our team is mainly using 3ds Max 9 right now. Would we still need to downgrade to 3ds Max 7? Or is there way we can stick with 3ds Max 9?

you talk about max filetypes. your artists should be capable of exporting something yes.

On the topic of Modeling, How does the Animation export process work?

the animations are done by defining rotations and translations as part of a larger unit behavior script.

Can custom animations be exported and used with the Spring Engine?

Sure you just have to find a way to convert those keyframes into the rotation/translation and sleep values of spring.

[knorke]

1) Fortunately in spring there is more to graphics than "just models and textures"!
There is a Lua-openGL-API-thingy and you can use that to draw whatever you want.
For example the fog and fire in this picture:
http://licho.eu/alba/Zero-K/screen00065.png are done with that.

2) Some hundreds to several thousands, depending on who you ask, how many units etc.

[PicassoCT]

Sometimes i have that feeling that my heart is not really into it, all this script-kidos-fillout-forms i have to handle. You have to be able to program, in lua, and understand what a api is, and well, make a test-mod, put someffort in, before we put some effort in.

t the Sage Engine (The Engine that the C&C 3 game is based off of) is somewhat limited.

sage isn't that limited, cnc3 is.

1:
How much can the graphics be customized?

the graphics are just models and textures...

Those the Spring Engine looks good...it does not seem up-to par with current game standards (No offense intended). Is it at all possible to improve the graphical features of the Spring Engine?

And if so, where would the file(s) be located in the Spring Engine Build/Source Code?

2:
What are the Poly Counts for models in the Spring Engine?

If it is possible to improve the graphics of the Spring Engine, would it also be possible to improve the Poly Count of each model (Units, Buildings and so on)?

3:
As of right now, would it be worth our teams time to transfer over to the Spring Engine from the Sage Engine?

4:
And number four, can the Spring Engine be made to work with better file types that are exported from 3ds Max. Our team is mainly using 3ds Max 9 right now. Would we still need to downgrade to 3ds Max 7? Or is there way we can stick with 3ds Max 9?

On the topic of Modeling, How does the Animation export process work?

Can custom animations be exported and used with the Spring Engine?

[FireDem0n]

sage isn't that limited, cnc3 is.

When I said Sage Engine I meant C&C 3. Considering that no one can actually use the engine itself unless you would for EA and its associates.

1:
You can write a lua shader to raise the contrast and blur everything if you want cnc style "graphics." you would write a lua shader, well probably not you, your team would needs someone competent in opengl.

Thanks for underestimating me. Your "well probably not you" was rather disrespectful. You should watch what you say and how you say it.

2:
You talk a lot about poly count, I am going to presume from here forward that you are not very technical. Please see the above answer again. Poly count is an arbitrary decision based on the complexity of the shaders you want to use and the unit count you want. Shaders being how most games get their "graphics" as you call them

You really have no respect for anyone on new on the forums. Just because I am new on this forum itself, DOES NOT mean I am new to the game development industry. Each game engine (whether that be the Halo CE engine, the C&C 3 engine, the CryEngine 2 & 3 or any other engine) has its own requirements and specifications. Thus I am asking these questions. Also...to correct you, Poly's (or Polygons) are any one single surface on a mesh or model. At least that was what is was when I last checked.....5 minutes ago. I have been working with game engines for the past 5 and a half years. Mainly creating 3D models in my spare time and putting them into different game engines and their corresponding games. Please check your information before misleading people. Thanks

3:
IMO, it isn't worth your time to do a halo mod. Microsoft has shown in the past that they have no issue shutting down halo projects. So I think the project is a waste of time on any engine. However, as a word of PERSONAL advice, your time is yours to spend how you want. Don't look for others to dictate your hobby.

Again, you don't seem to be very up-to date on you information. Halogen was shut down due to Halo Wars being released. After Halo Wars was officially released, the modding community went into a massive Halo mod boom. If you ever go on ModDB...you would actually know this. Microsoft has not shut down a single Halo Mod (from what I have seen and heard) since Halogens downfall. What you think is "a waste of time" is actually a grand opportunity. Again....fact check your information before misleading other users.

you talk about max filetypes. your artists should be capable of exporting something yes.

Filetypes such as FBX, OBJ, 3DS and other well known filetypes. Also...I AM the 3d modeling artist for the team...Thank you very much.


Thank you for your time. Even though it was blunt and disrespectful, it has still helped our team out in understanding the Spring Engine.

[FireDem0n]

the graphics are just models and textures...

I forgot to mention that this ^ is not completely correct. A game engine can only use high polygon models and high pixel texture if it is programmed to do so. Meaning that how you program a engine will determine how much it can handle model and texture wise. The more effort and time you put in, the more you will get out of your engine. While the less you put in, the less you will get out of your engine.

[smoth]

Subject: Couple of Questions. Possible Game Engine Move....

Thanks for underestimating me. Your "well probably not you" was rather disrespectful. You should watch what you say and how you say it.

considering how disorganized your post was, I feel it was a fair judgement

You really have no respect for anyone on new on the forums. Just because I am new on this forum itself, DOES NOT mean I am new to the game development industry. Each game engine (whether that be the Halo CE engine, the C&C 3 engine, the CryEngine 2 & 3 or any other engine) has its own requirements and specifications. Thus I am asking these questions. Also...to correct you, Poly's (or Polygons) are any one single surface on a mesh or model. At least that was what is was when I last checked.....5 minutes ago. I have been working with game engines for the past 5 and a half years. Mainly creating 3D models in my spare time and putting them into different game engines and their corresponding games. Please check your information before misleading people. Thanks

Your welcome. poly COUNT is arbitray, poly counts are a mere arbitrary quantification. I wasn't misleading you, You asked about polycount. Also gg on 5 years experience, it is irrelevant, I have near 7 years this engine don't bust out the epeen. I didn't mislead you, you asked about count. I answered

Again, you don't seem to be very up-to date on you information. Halogen was shut down due to Halo Wars being released. After Halo Wars was officially released, the modding community went into a massive Halo mod boom. If you ever go on ModDB...you would actually know this. Microsoft has not shut down a single Halo Mod (from what I have seen and heard) since Halogens downfall. What you think is "a waste of time" is actually a grand opportunity. Again....fact check your information before misleading other users.

Am I? I said they do it. The fact that they have is precedent enough.

If I ever go on, cute. Perhaps you should look me up on moddb yourself.

I didn't mislead anything. I just warned you that microsoft has done this before and may do it again.

Filetypes such as FBX, OBJ, 3DS and other well known filetypes. Also...I AM the 3d modeling artist for the team...Thank you very much.

You are, good for you. So then you can work with those file types then. Have you read much in the wiki? It will be your resource and answer your questions *edit* if not, you need to ask here, because the wiki can be fed to answer where you feel it falls short*/edit*

Thank you for your time. Even though it was blunt and disrespectful, it has still helped our team out in understanding the Spring Engine.

No problem, feel free to take all the insulted you want.

the graphics are just models and textures...

I forgot to mention that this ^ is not completely correct. A game engine can only use high polygon models and high pixel texture if it is programmed to do so. Meaning that how you program a engine will determine how much it can handle model and texture wise. The more effort and time you put in, the more you will get out of your engine. While the less you put in, the less you will get out of your engine.

Not really. How you program the engine and what shaders your write for it.


you have great energy, but I looked you up before replying. You should have done the same before mouthing off.

[PicassoCT]

Why the hell would a team send its artists for scouting engine alternatives?

Seriously, the engine is capable, though it has its limits when it comes to biological units (limits can be worked around).

The problem is that you compare some very diffrent fruits here.
CC has a zoomlimit, which spring doesent have, thus there is a icon-distance, which every user sets as he likes, and according to the performance off his maschine.

Also, you might be a little less cheery if you would actually realise that smoth, who made gundam-mod, just lost 5 years of work due to a sudden change of ip-ownership. So what does your mod-tolerance depend on? Some guy having a desk in M$, and if that guy gets fired, or has a (sudden change of heart/brain-tumor), or a bad day, or rts seems to become economical interesting again, that is it. Sounds not like a solid base, to build up something, that might cost you x% of your life.

Well I shouldnt throw rocks here, living on the doorstep of hl2 with my mod, but going completely for a .. the point is, i have shoved up big textures and horrible inefficient scripts into the engine, and it just sat there taking it. Still running well. And Shadders are grafixcards trouble anyway.. so as long as you dont do anything to exotic, you are fine with this one. But work it is. Lots of. As it is everywhere.

Just make a demoport, one tank + script.. see if you like what you get.
Also for the future, sign here and here: We did warn you about using forreign intellectuell property as basis. I mean, this is not even ment offensive, for all i know, you guys are going to build the next Generals (which was awesome by the way), but even then, you are going to be the beggars who have one and only one publisher who might sell you short for choice).. so yep. And so even those who seem to flame at you, have solid reason for doing so.

[FLOZi]

Hey there! I am one of the two head developers of a Mod on ModDB called Elysian Fields. It is a C&C 3 to Halo Conversion mod. Considering that the Sage Engine (The Engine that the C&C 3 game is based off of) is somewhat limited...we found the Spring Engine rather interesting and have a couple of questions about it. So...here are those questions.

Why hallo there.

1:
How much can the graphics be customized? Those the Spring Engine looks good...it does not seem up-to par with current game standards (No offense intended). Is it at all possible to improve the graphical features of the Spring Engine? And if so, where would the file(s) be located in the Spring Engine Build/Source Code?

Graphics is rather a catch-all term, which parts in particular do you think need improvement (terrain, unit models etc)? Depending on the games you have played or screens/videos you have seen you might be seeing the best Spring can offer or the worst.

2:
What are the Poly Counts for models in the Spring Engine? If it is possible to improve the graphics of the Spring Engine, would it also be possible to improve the Poly Count of each model (Units, Buildings and so on)?

Generally speaking it's your own design decision (though note there is no inbuilt model LODing system, though it is possible via the lua api) and varies depending on visual style and how many units you expect to be running around the playing field at one time. FWIW, most units in Spring: 1944 were around 1-2k tris, but the newer revamped models are more like 4-5k.

3:
As of right now, would it be worth our teams time to transfer over to the Spring Engine from the Sage Engine?

I think that is the point of you asking the other questions; only you can answer this one

4:
And number four, can the Spring Engine be made to work with better file types that are exported from 3ds Max. Our team is mainly using 3ds Max 9 right now. Would we still need to downgrade to 3ds Max 7? Or is there way we can stick with 3ds Max 9? And while on the topic of Modeling, How does the Animation export process work? Can custom animations be exported and used with the Spring Engine?

This is a two-parter; Spring includes the assimp library as well as separate support for .obj and a Spring specific format .s3o. No need to change software.

Animation is more of an issue; in Spring there is no (native) mesh deformation etc, each piece of a model is separate and rotated and moved by commands in the scripting language. It is feasible that you could create an export script of some kind to get animations from MAX into Spring but it won't be easy

(N.B. The Upspring model preparation tool can import BVH and has an export script to the old scripting language (bos - originally from Total Annhiliation) but it never really worked in a reliable fashion).

We are hoping that we will be able to move over to the Spring Engine but that depends on the questions above. Please let us know what the answer to these questions are as soon as anyone can.

Thank you for your time.

FireDem0n

For realtime discussion join #moddev, #lua and #sy (engine dev channel) on the lobby.

[smoth]

Animation is more of an issue; in Spring there is no (native) mesh deformation etc, each piece of a model is separate and rotated and moved by commands in the scripting language. It is feasible that you could create an export script of some kind to get animations from MAX into Spring but it won't be easy

(N.B. The Upspring model preparation tool can import BVH and has an export script to the old scripting language (bos - originally from Total Annhiliation) but it never really worked in a reliable fashion

these points in particular fire demon are very important. You can work around the no deformation with clever modeling but it is a big issue

[FLOZi]

I suspect given the infantry-centric nature of the game, having had a peak at the moddb page, it will be the defining issue.

(Then again Cursed is still amazing)

[smoth]

well most of the stuff in the haloverse has knee and elbow armor..

[FireDem0n]

Another quick question that I forgot to ask. Does the Spring Engine support a bone/rigging system. Such as foot units and such. Or is it strictly a mesh engine (i.e. Tanks and other vehicles)?

Thanks

[SinbadEV]

Another quick question that I forgot to ask. Does the Spring Engine support a bone/rigging system. Such as foot units and such. Or is it strictly a mesh engine (i.e. Tanks and other vehicles)?

Thanks

Neither?

The rigging is per-mesh so you can have robots too... there's no native inverse kinematics or bones or what have you but each piece and movement is controlled by scripts so something like a foot and leg adjusting to the terrain is entirely plausible... just a matter of scripting (been done with everything from ATAT style walkers to giant spiders to mecha so armoured infantry is doable...)

[Super Mario]

Another quick question that I forgot to ask. Does the Spring Engine support a bone/rigging system. Such as foot units and such. Or is it strictly a mesh engine (i.e. Tanks and other vehicles)?

Thanks

Neither?

The rigging is per-mesh so you can have robots too... there's no native inverse kinematics or bones or what have you but each piece and movement is controlled by scripts so something like a foot and leg adjusting to the terrain is entirely plausible... just a matter of scripting (been done with everything from ATAT style walkers to giant spiders to mecha so armoured infantry is doable...)

Would that require more work for the artist?

[PicassoCT]

No, its never more work for the artist. Its always more work for the Devs, to the feature request board.. this one shall walk the plank..

[Beherith]

Please excuse smoth's cynicism and Picassos quite hard to decipher posts.

I would agree with the ones speaking before me, that the biggest current limitation of the engine is the animation format. You cant have mesh deformations, but can still make good infantry animations. Check out Spring 1944 and The Cursed.

Welcome to Spring!

[SwiftSpear]

No, its never more work for the artist. Its always more work for the Devs, to the feature request board.. this one shall walk the plank..

Actually, spring already has that feature, it's just not exceptionally easy to use. Especially considering spring's animation format.

FireDemon: Smoth's answers were terse but accurate. He's not trying to insult you, Spring can do some really nice things, and it has some pretty cool features that don't really exist in too many other AAA, indie, or open sourced RTS engines... but that being said, there are some serious downsides to building a project with spring as well and we'd be doing you a disservice to not be honest with you that if your team chooses to work with our engine there will be some learning required, and some pains caused by it. It's unfortunately not an easy engine to cut your teeth on. If that doesn't describe your team, consider it a friendly warning, but if it does describe your team, then heed his advice carefully, because he's a guy with A LOT of experience with spring projects and software development projects as a whole.

Additionally, please don't do the e-resume thing. The majority of us here have been involved in the games industry long enough to know that an experienced game developer doesn't ask "can I improve the graphics of this engine?"

There are literally a dozen totally opposite things that "improve the graphics" could mean. Do you want to write shaders? Are you asking if there are hard coded polygon rendering limits? (there are not by the way, and I don't think I've ever encountered an engine where they were...). Are you implying the animations could be better? Maybe your complaint is the the way the terrain looks?

I personally found it kind of odd you were honing in on polygon count (which is of really low significance in the games industry right now compared to any time in the past 10 years) when personally, I look at this engine and I see it in CLEAR need of some nicer lighting shaders.

You'll be forgiven if you're more a community guy, or a marketer, or a scripter, or maybe a sprite artist or something, for no knowing these things in intimate detail... but please don't attempt an aire of expertise that you don't really have, it just makes you look silly, and it means you'll get less help in the long run, because no one wants to teach someone who thinks they have nothing to learn.

[Forboding Angel]

Please check out:

http://www.evolutionrts.info
and
http://www.zero-k.info

There are screenshots attesting to some things that spring can do graphically, and that's not even close to what it's capable of. Gundam screenshots would be the best imo, but unfortunately, I don't know where to find them anymore.

Also, smoth and flozi are 2 of the most knowledgeable guys here. Smoth by far has done the most work with the engine and game development in general as he quite literally is a 10 man wrapped into 1 development team. When either of them speak, you would do well to listen.

Smoth wasn't being rude. Your original post sounded very newbish (as in newb to development in general). Smoth's reply was very much in line with the original post.

[Pressure Line]

Are you asking if there are hard coded polygon rendering limits? (there are not by the way, and I don't think I've ever encountered an engine where they were)

IIRC Warzone 2100 either has (or used to have) a 512 tri limit per component (there usually being 3 components for a mobile unit, 2 for defensive structures and 1 for base structures) and a limited vertex resoultion (xyz values clamped to the nearest 0.1 units)

And as for 'improving the graphics', people think Spring and see this: [~100 tris, 32x32 per quad textures]

when they really ought to be seeing stuff like this: [~4500 tris, 1024x512 (body) + 256x128 (wheels) uvmapped texture]

Which is a shame, but c'est la vie.