Civilian Faction

[SerjnDestroy]

An odd little idea I had, while thing about spectating.. (although I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned before somewhere else, but anyway)

It started with wondering if there could be a way to involve spectators in a game, in a way that would make the gameplay more interesting (and yes, I understand that spectators join a game to watch, but having something to do while watching wouldn't detract from the watching that much..)

I thought that adding a civilian faction, playable by spectators, or at least fulfilling a spectator like role; A faction that allows the spectators to control non combat units, and build non production buildings, their only goal to be surviving through the game without any combat units, or maybe gathering as much resources as possible, and buying players over to protect them, or spying for players in turn for similar protection (in competition with other spectators, even..). Gameplay that is emergent, along with political commentary and all that..

Of course, some of these suggestions affect the rest of the gameplay in quite a big way, so it might need to be toned down a bit..

Anyway, what do you guys think about it? Has it been suggested/attempted before?

Ideas suggested throughout the discussion:

Non-intrusive:
-Civilians don't have builder units, instead use drop placement similar to BA Skirmish, Mercenaries etc. Cant place items in team start zones or x distance from player start points (not sure how one'd lua this, but I'm sure it can be done)
Could be cool, as you now have scenery that is always different with every new game. Can't receive units/capture buildings.
Civilians can view the entire map.
Spectators cant move any units during the game, so there is nearly no change in their position.

Slightly intrusive:
-Civilians have builder units, who cant capture or recieve units, but can still build. No weapons etc. People get built automatically, civ team has no resources save buildpower. Civ team with most people wins (maybe)
or
-Spectators get a fps controlled unit that cant do any damage, but can ride around on the map.

Moderately intrusive:
-Civilians can build resource structures, and can donate to teams. They still can capture or receive anything. Civ team with the most resources in the end wins.
or
-Spectators gets a small vehicle with a light weapon, to wreak mini havok around the place

[Teutooni]

They wouldn't be spectators anymore now would they?

An intresting idea anyway... TA style games are not about politics, just... well total annihilation of the enemy. It would require a completely new design, so go ahead and design!

[SerjnDestroy]

Well, in a way they would be, in a way, because they arent really partaking in the game (as you said, utter annihilation of your enemies). All they do is exist, and don't need to actually do anything, nor can they really win (save maybe in a few meta ways, but those aren't really necessary)

And with TA not being a political game, I agree, but in FFA games it sometimes does.. It's not that the game needs any modification to allow for it, it is just the players perceptions. With the designing, one could make a huge thing about it, and put in place a very complex political system, but I don't think that is necessary to achieve what I envision..

[KDR_11k]

I have a feeling that wouldn't get used for much more than trolling (grabbing one player's resources or build area). If spectators are so bored by the match maybe someone should write a Tetris widget.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

id be happy if spectators could start the game with a single jeffy/weasel with the awesome suspension/jump from hills scripts in operation polaris 0.5;
if you cant be arsed to play properly, enjoy the game raiding the occasional mex, jumping off huge hills on tabula for heroic escapes and microing like hell
<3 oh we can dream

[SerjnDestroy]

That's the thing about not having any weapons, irritate a player, and you get blown away in seconds. If players destroy the civilians, it's not like either side loses anything (if anything, the players benefit, because they can retrieve the resources that the civilians spent building stuff). And in this comes the I daresay social commentary part of the game, are you willing to destroy weapon less innocents just to further your own agenda?

Having lua widget games that have nothing to do with the game you are watching is pointless, you can just as well run spring windowed and play another mini game outside of spring. Having a minigame that is involved with the game itself would make a lot more sense, at least to me (heck, if you can integrate the tetris game into something PuzzlePiratey it could be pretty cool as well, clear a row and get a bonus to your metal extractor, but that's a topic for another day)..

[Masure]

I have a feeling that wouldn't get used for much more than trolling (grabbing one player's resources or build area). If spectators are so bored by the match maybe someone should write a Tetris widget.

If specs are bored they have to leave. I don't see the point playing tetris with a Spring game in background you don't spec. This kind of spec games would give us crappy specs. Then, hosts won't like specs anymore (they all don't like them).

Speccing is a full time job and has to be well considered.

Pro speccer experience inside

[KDR_11k]

That's the thing about not having any weapons, irritate a player, and you get blown away in seconds. If players destroy the civilians, it's not like either side loses anything (if anything, the players benefit, because they can retrieve the resources that the civilians spent building stuff). And in this comes the I daresay social commentary part of the game, are you willing to destroy weapon less innocents just to further your own agenda?

People will do it if it is an advantage but I think there can very well be a situation where civs can get in the way, a spec has to see everything so he could see that a player is reteating a force, the civs could block their escape route and thus make the pursuers catch up

[SerjnDestroy]

Cant current specs also ruin games by telling players what other players are doing?

And if civilians always troll games in this way, wouldn't it become meta to destroy civilians whenever you see them? And if they are destroyed constantly, for no reason, don't they sort of have a reason to retaliate?

The thing is, this aspect is, as I mentioned, emergent gameplay. Some people don't like it, but in a way, it is the purest type of game there is..
All mods have it, in some for or another, be it for the better or the worse, but it is definitely more interesting than only having happen what the designer plans..

[BaNa]

id be happy if spectators could start the game with a single jeffy/weasel with the awesome suspension/jump from hills scripts in operation polaris 0.5;
if you cant be arsed to play properly, enjoy the game raiding the occasional mex, jumping off huge hills on tabula for heroic escapes and microing like hell
<3 oh we can dream

:D haha this. maybe invulnerable jeffies that cant fire would be better...

[Gota]

no point in making specs do any of this..the very common sense definition of spectating a game means not being involved..
What can be done is a system that allows players to not play as military factions but in a simcity kind of way..
These cities can have a score at the end of the game based on their final population cash etc..now this will basically be a separate game for them except that the players that play the combating factions might accidentally ruin the cities and the units should have no problem moving and destroying them easily so the cities wont interfere with gameplay too much except as obstacles to shots.

[smoth]

Cant current specs also ruin games by telling players what other players are doing?

yes but they are spectators. what you are suggesting is a faction that will end up required in a team game, is a non-combatant and only serves as a support role. They can do that as it is just being the resource whore of their team. Spectators are there to watch the game. They are not there for any other purpose, if they wanted to participate then they should have joined and played a support role on their team.

oh and hey if they are playing, their ally could just give them a few conbots and BAM they can build combat units.

I do not think you have fully thought out this idea and how it would really play out. Just add support units to a fac..... oh wait they already have them.

[SerjnDestroy]

Somehow I think you misunderstand, smoth.. The civ faction cannot ally with the military players, they are completely separate from the rest of the game, resources can't be auto shared, only gifted (and not necessarily, either). The civ units cannot gain units or reasources from any other player (this might be tricky, but civilians are supposed to be unable to handle military equipment), not through sharing or any other means. The civ faction isn't intended to be a resource whore, they aren't there to partake in the game, at least not directly in any way.

The thing is, this is an experiment. Not only in gameplay, but in the human psyche. If you can predict the outcome of an experiment to an exact point, there isn't much point in doing so, save for confirmation of your hypothesis.

[smoth]

'h' key give conbot.

[SerjnDestroy]

Yes, removing that option is the tricky part. But I'm sure you could lua it out somehow (I've never scripted for spring, but there must be a onRecieve or onCreate call, and a hp modifier, so whenever the civ team recieves a unit it self destructs)

[smoth]

you would also have to disable capture, which is an element of TA I used every chance I got.

[SerjnDestroy]

Only for the civilian side.. Not for the entire game. The civilian side won't be using the same builders etc, so I dont think it would be that hard..

Heck, the civilians dont even have to have any builders. You could give them a limited amount of points, and they can drop build anywhere similar to that merc game or BA skirmish

[smoth]

well can disable capture by setting specific tags I am kinda busy but I seem to remember some tags. BTW, when are you updating your first post with the revisions that have been made to the design.

[SerjnDestroy]

The original post wasn't intended to be canon, I just wanted to start the discussion. I could make a more detailed version though, where we categorize the different versions maybe (Totally Nonintrusive < Slightly gameplay effecting < Totally Gameplay changing).

[smoth]

canon.

I was saying more that you could have the first post updated with your more fleshed out concept so people do not have read all the posts to contribute to your thread.