License of Operation Polaris 0.5

[FLOZi]

I'm not sure what level of lua code OP even has, most of its neat tricks are pure COB.

[smoth]

not really, if you are worried about compatibility, gpl only requires a GPL compatibile license they have a a large variety available.

[Centipede]

if by some weirdo magic logic I don't own and have control over what I make in spring, then I will simply move to another engine


also what the christ at splitting the topic O.o



also I do not use LUA because it is the devil

[IllvilJa]

I would personally LOVE to see Operation Polaris released under GPL, but I'm a firm believer in the right of the creators of the mod to release it under other licenses (as long as those make sense and of course don't imply involve physical harm to any person, *cough* *cough* *harkle*) and I think that right should be respected.

We can politely and nicely ask them to open up the code and content and I personally think that could attract quite a lot of contributors. (BTW, regarding being nice... Centipede asked us to be nice in his first post in this thread, so...)

Making statements that the creators of this mod for some reason are required to open up the mod's contents or expressing explicit demands for it to be opened up WON'T WORK! They will probably only result in the mod creators to be more reluctant to release the code. So please stop making stupid demands and unreasonably claims regarding obligations to use the GPL.

I'm not a open source license lawyer, but I find it VERY hard to believe that just because a programming language (e.g LUA or Perl) are distributed under the GPL then every script written that is interpreted by that language also has to be released under the GPL. There IS proprietary, closed source stuff out there written in Perl for instance. Tons of it. And as far as I know, Perl is GPL.

So, could we bring this thread back from licensing issue so we could discuss the general awesomness of a MOD with Lego level graphics which actually runs nicely on those pesky Intel GPUs which tend to be installed in a LOT of laptop models these days?

[Saktoth]

That is very sad, closed source software ftl. Spring wouldnt even exist with that mentality.

Not everyone shares your opinion.

Perhaps not, but the engine you're using is an open source project founded on those ideals. I find the total rejection and occasional open hostility towards those ideals to be relatively disappointing given this history and the continued development of the project based around that development model.

Im not saying you have to open-source your mod, but personally i find it sad to see so much closed source content for an open source engine.

With a developed, high-quality open source game on an open source engine, truly and geniunely free of proprietary content- think of what a benefit that would be to open source and people in general.

At the moment the big open-source games are things like 'Battle for Westnoth'. Battle for Westnoth? Kids stuff. But its like the height of open-source gaming. Spring is lightyears ahead. It just needs a finished, geniunely free content package and some better marketing.

[KDR_11k]

I think if you're opening anything you shouldn't use the GPL because noone even knows what it really does, never mind that almost no mod in Spring is even eligible for using GPL material. People are going to avoid GPLed material like the plague anyway so that opening would do nothing except result in a crapflood of "balance" mods, if even that. If you want open use a simpler license, at least then other mods know what they have to do if they want the stuff. Or just use the default model of "just ask the author", that has worked for years for many different modding platforms without any headaches about what the legal text you pasted on your stuff actually means or people whining about "closed" licenses ("ask me" is not closed and in fact usually results in a positive reply if you haven't been a total idiot before asking).

also I do not use LUA because it is the devil

lern2lua nub!

[Saktoth]

Balance mods arent a bad thing. The most popular mod is just a balance mod. Balance and beta testing is an incredibly hard part of the development process and requires a large number of players, a lot of playing over a long time, and the input of skilled players. This is something a small dev team just cant do on their own (esp if they are artists or designers more than they are players).

I can think of nothing more appropriate to be done under an open source system than balance. If forks are allowed by anyone who can edit a text document, balanced games will tend to float to the surface (IE, get played more) than ones with op units, bugs and exploits. Evolution is an effecient process. Finally, good players who dont know how to do more than edit def files can contribute their expertise directly to balancing the mod and a game that simply wouldnt be played otherwise gets fixed, polished and popular.

[smoth]

I don't agree with you and no matter how much you barf that opinion I will step over it and move on.

This thread isn't about you are you constant efforts to force your views.

[Saktoth]

I don't agree with you and no matter how much you barf that opinion I will step over it and move on.

This thread isn't about you are you constant efforts to force your views.

I am not forcing you to do anything. You can disagree with me about my 'oppinion' that spring is open source but you would be wrong. You can disagree with my about my oppinion that open source is good but you are benefiting from open source software. Honestly i dont know why you do, you've released some CC images that were gratefully recieved by the community. (Edit: To make this clear, what i mean by this is: We even use them in CA so, thanks!)

This has nothing to do with me, i am entreating the makers of this mod to consider opening up their development for the good of their own project, as much as anything. I have no power to force people do to anything...

[smoth]

Spring started as closed source and frankly you are comparing apples and mother fucking oranges. I can read any of the source in any of the projects, meaning if someone took one of my scripts and changed it, I'll just steal back the damn correction.

Spring is a compiled executable and it s seriously more complicated project than most if not all of the game/mods here. After a certain point the decision for whatever reason was made to open up the source. I have seen the chaos that was created with your debate we have had this discussion many times before and the last time we had it I told you the same thing, not everyone follows your view.

I have observed the progress of CA, it started great allowing many people to contribute then you began steamrolling others with your view as though you were the singular authority. In my opinion CA has fallen far and it is mostly thanks you ... why am I repeating myself.

You have your opinion, stop trying to use spring to justify YOUR logic, that doesn't validate you, you are just trying to distract the discussion. You just repeat the same comments over and over again no matter what point is brought to bear. Life, projects and people are not one size fits all. In the end you have no right to harp on anyone for not embracing GPL or as I call it the viral license. You say battle for westnoth is childsplay, I don't think you could make it. You talk about what is best for everyone else's project but you did not make them.

I could give two fucks what license someone uses, that is there prerogative. if they ask all users to pat their belly before playing, that is their right. Spring's license has NOTHING to do with any project. So stop with it, CA is mostly PD oh and still a majority of it is stolen ta content. What are you doing about that mr high and mighty hypocrisy, because it is hypocritical. Saktoth, you are holding others to standards that you openly violate. You say them over as though it would stick but instead you are driving people away.

If you really want to encourage open source quit telling people to do and suggest HUMBLY or perhaps ask them to consider opening it up. You current approach is going to drive people away. Oh and gpl is fucking restrictive. There have been 2 years of debate and even though I have talked to a MANAGING DIRECTOR and have a clear understanding of it the community is going to argue about it to infinity. Because I am not a lawyer and having a 3rd party interpretation leaves too much to mess up I cannot say with any authority that I am correct.

also, opinion has 1 p. :)

[Saktoth]

Someone will not 'steal' and make an improvement to any of your works if you expressly tell them not to, generally. If they're polite. The freedom to edit im talking about is, of course, the legal and social freedom, not the physical freedom which is conferred by the nature of spring mods themselves.

Forgive my syntactic ambiguity: by 'founded' i mean 'based (as in its 'foundation') rather than 'begun as'. Yes, Spring started as closed source, and the descision made to open up springs source benefited us greatly, i think. We all owe the existence of our little hobby projects to that descision since the origional developers have long since abandoned it- so more than anything, it benefited Spring itself. Every change since then has been due to that descision and i am immensely grateful to the SY's for making it and everyone since who has contributed.

I am sad that you feel that way about CA. The golden morty is still in game you know. I'll admit i've always disliked it and argued against it but there it is, still in game. Doesnt make me much of a dictator does it?

I am not a huge fan of the GPL either, its not really 'free' given all the restrictions that are placed on it. I would encourage people to use a more open liscence than GPL and have campaigned the other CA devs to do so. Alas, jK, our major lua dev (Read: the stuff people most want to take) wont have a bar of it. He is of course free to liscence his lua any way he likes even if i disagree with him.

...I think you may have an incorrect view of me, or of my positions. I am not CA's dictator, i am not some GPL zealot.

Battle for Wesnoth is childsplay compared to spring. This is purely to the credit of Springs developers of which i had no part. I am hardly grandstanding myself in making thist statement.

I am trying to convince people that letting others edit their work is to their benefit, to the benefit of their project, and to the benefit of everyone working on it. Spring itself is just a demonstration of what is possible given this route. I obviously have no power to compel anyone to do anything. I am as free to express my entreaties as they, and you, are free to disagree or disregard them.

[zwzsg]

the engine you're using is an open source project founded on those ideals.

Utter lies!
1) For several years the Spring engine remained closed source.
2) The Spring community is based on the thievery of Atari wares.

It just needs a finished, geniunely free content package and some better marketing.

There are many already. But the majority of people including yourself have chosen to ignore them and keep on considering Spring as in TA but in 3D.

Oh, and for the record, there isn't any LUA file inside Operation Polaris. Not a single one.

[TheFatController]

There are many already. But the majority of people including yourself have chosen to ignore them and keep on considering Spring as in TA but in 3D.

Well correct me if i'm wrong but Spring was created as a 3D TA platform, that's why it uses bos/cob etc in the first place?

[Wolf-In-Exile]

That is very sad, closed source software ftl. Spring wouldnt even exist with that mentality.

Not everyone shares your opinion.

Perhaps not, but the engine you're using is an open source project founded on those ideals.

Spring is NOT founded on GPL ideals. Never has, never was, never when. And since you acknowledge that fact, stop making false assertions like this.

You may not agree with people who practice closed source development, but to each his own. Spring is still very strongly rooted in TA IP, and looks like it'll be locked down with it seeing as projects like CA are still sticking in '+1' TA art assets.

I personally sympathise with closed source development because i've had my work stolen, used elsewhere without my knowledge or permission and passed off as someone else's work, and was even accused of stealing my own goddamn work when I confronted the culprit about it, so fuck that.

I might be arsed to make and release GPL stuff occasionally, but seeing people complaining every time someone says they'd rather not open source their work is annoying and just puts me off making GPL work.

[Tobi]

Spring would be dead by now if it wasn't free/open source.

Just like some mods, which weren't open source, are dead now.

And if Spring was closed source and wasn't dead by now it definitely wouldn't have had the exponential growth in features Spring has gone through. So while Spring wasn't founded as free/open source project, it's current existence/form is definitely due to the fact it is a free/open source project.

[smoth]

I said it in my pm but the discussion needs to hear it.

can you see the source to spring.
YES

can you see the source to any spring project
YES

Can you modify spring's code and add it to spring
NO, you need permission but you can submit code

Can you modify a project's code and add it to a project
NO, you need permission but you can submit code

the difference? none. just a damn license. it is rubbish that's what!

what this community is also founded on is theft. The TA content was stolen we all know it. So instead of replacing it people spend all their time GUILTING others who make shit. Odds are if they had asked, you know like normal people. Instead of demanded that we pony up then they would find us more cooperative or at least more receptive.

I know there is at least one person here that I have allowed to use a gundam model when he asked. I think it was black something or other.

The pony up mentality of this community makes me rage. When tobi needed a map, he asked and I had time so it got done. I find most people here are more than willing to help if you just ask them nicely. Licenses are not needed. You don't need a lawyer to help a friend.

[Jasper1984]

I am not a huge fan of the GPL either, its not really 'free' given all the restrictions that are placed on it.

What about the GPL is so restrictive? That derivative works need to GPL too? That is like saying the state takes away freedoms because kidnapping is illegal. And if usage is library-like, you have the LGPL. Mostly, it is just to allow people to share code without worrying that people will run away with it, without contributing.

I can read any of the source in any of the projects, meaning if someone took one of my scripts and changed it, I'll just steal back the damn correction.

Maybe someone will copy your source make their modifications, and put it back in his own mod, but scramble the variable names and whitespace. That could make 'stealing back' a lot of hassle.
You say 'I'll just steal back' are you alright with the stealing?(Or something) You might aswel have used a license that allowed for the sharing back and forth -_- and disallowed obfuscation.

Anyway, if you are sole author or _all_ original authors agree, you can use other licenses besides the GPL. Also, maybe the LGPL is a better choice, as it will surely not 'infect' other lua scripts.(And is compatible)

As for content, i do not really care what license it is under. (And GPL like licenses wouldnt even make sense for it.) Of course people making licenses revocable and such could cause trouble, though.

Can you modify spring's code and add it to spring
NO, you need permission but you can submit code

Can you modify a project's code and add it to a project
NO, you need permission but you can submit code

That is a YES, YES, you only need your own website to distribute it and compete for players for it. Secondly i am sure you can get good code submitted, with a little patience.
The OTA content might be theft but the spring engine and scripts are not.

[smoth]

Maybe someone will copy your source make their modifications, and put it back in his own mod, but scramble the variable names and whitespace. That could make 'stealing back' a lot of hassle.
You say 'I'll just steal back' are you alright with the stealing?(Or something) You might aswel have used a license that allowed for the sharing back and forth -_- and disallowed obfuscation.

awesome I am in a bad mood today to. hi noob.

Ok stupid, so they are going to write an obfuscator and a new format that isn't cob? if they can do all that why steal the scripts?

Are they going to make their own version of the engine to?

Wow. didn't think that out did you?

Sure I could fly over there and kill you, I end the argument. I do so hate people who use wild exaggerations to make a point. There is always a different extreme, who know I could put a hit out. However, lets be reasonable and not stupid.

It would take a lot of work because I can decompile a bos. so they would have to rewrite whole chunks of the engine. Also to add insult to injury. Not that you knew HOWEVEr I have said for years that the scripts in gundam you know (the CODE) are public domain anyway.

Can you modify spring's code and add it to spring
NO, you need permission but you can submit code

Can you modify a project's code and add it to a project
NO, you need permission but you can submit code

That is a YES, YES, you only need your own website to distribute it and compete for players for it. Secondly i am sure you can get good code submitted, with a little patience.
The OTA content might be theft but the spring engine and scripts are not.

It is NO AND NO because we are talking about the root. You cannot change the spring base code with a commit without permission and my base code store is on my neck and if you try to take it from me I will skullfuck you with my left foot or my truck

The OTA CONTENT includes the scripts used by the ta units that were pilfered. not that you can see it but I have also been rewriting and augmenting the PD headers that come with scriptor.

The spring engine is released for free to be used as an engine. Which I DO.

why do you argue like this, wild exaggerations are the sight of a staggering debate. I will defend my thumbdrive. I wear that even to the hospital.

[smoth]

look man I am not going to bite your head off, don't mind the bodies or my skull castle in fire swamp. I am a good guy really. If you want to understand more about how all this works it is fine.

I am not really going to eat your face... or even nose. I am just trying to illustrate why those sort of extreme things are pretty bad.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

OH MY GOD THE BIKE JUMPED :DDDDDDD