Discuss game development here, from a distinct game project to an accessible third-party mutator, down to the interaction and design of individual units if you like.
NOTE: the space marines and Eldar were done in an mod for OTA and zwzsg was gonna convert it but it fell by the way side. the biggest probs with it were scripting things like weapons not firing or being to similar to each other. also the build pics were not as helpful in determing what was what (mainly a prob for the space marines- thou any vets will know what is what by sheer familarity with the game)
EX:
-Noob looks at plasma marine or lascannon marine and is like "what the hell is the anti tank one"
(meanwhile his regular marines are killed off by Fire Prims And Falcons )
-40ker looks at them and goes "hmm those Fire Prisms and Falcons are a pain i need some lascannons"
(he wins! !)
How are you folks intending to simulate a proper points system?
The easiest way, of course, is to assign a M/E cost that's directly from the book values, and then not have anything that makes new M/E... or makes very small amounts, so that it feels more like tabletop Epic and less like DoW... without all of the cool FX. But hey, that's just meh- I plan to do a mini-mod that plays a lot like Myth...
My plan was the metal points become Stratigec points (cause they SHOULD be, if the map desinge is right) and the energy plants are barracses or sleeping tents or something or other that makes "Upkeep" and all units suck upkeep from the upkeep pool, while sucking up some natural fetures (like a native's crop of vegtibles or a corpse in the case of more goulish armys) will supliment your upkeep reserve.
... the only problem with Upkeep, at least for now, is that units will not stop moving, if out've Upkeep. The only drain that's really meaningful is that they won't shoot- and Spring auto-prioritizes shooting before building things.
I'm not sure I'm really all that excited about a game that just plays like a regular, garden-variety RTS, but claims to be 40K. One of the few things that has never changed about 40K (I have the original, played it over a decade ago when it wasn't a big deal yet) was that its entire design is based on points. You bring yer army... yer army has to be under the points totals.... and then you fight it out. The entire game design has always been about using crazy variety you have available to defeat your opponants, who also bring crazy variety. Regular TA-style RTS treatment of the game design just seems like taking the easy way out.
DoW was ok, but only after I modded it so that it didn't feel so completely boring by adding meaningful tactical variety to it, by playing around with their crude armor system, among other things. Spring is capable of much more interesting dynamics, such as purposefully making use of the "degrading metal" feature, among other things, so that people could play a "classic" version that was designed around diminishing returns, for example, or a "for newbies only" version that didn't feature that. I keep wondering why nobody (except for me) sees that such a thing is just crying out for a clever designer to make it into the central feature of a game. Drat this whole needing sleep and having to work thing...
I'm probably a tiny minority of one on this stuff, though, so I'm going to leave y'all alone now
Warning: marathon, epic post. I won't apologize for a long post, but I will warn you if you're the kind who can't read a few pages without beginning to twitch. I might repost as a new thread; something tells me that my call might be lost on page 19 of the Epic:TA thread.
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Argh, the really drastic mods will start to arrive when people start arriving here without previous TA experience. Right now, every mod and game that's being played in the Spring lobby (short of nanoblobs, which is really just an experiment, so I won't count that =P) began its life as a TA mod, and so is very much tied to the TA structure of RTS.
I've also had many ideas, but until our current generation of modders finish their old TA-based mods and move on, or start to drastically alter those mods to better fit the Spring engine, rather than the TA engine, we're going to keep seeing the same gameplay conventions in practice.
I was crying for this even with the TA engine; every single custom race I saw was basically arm or core with pretty new models and weapons. Perhaps some minor changes, but only one of them really attempted to make that race play differently from the old two races (Rhyoss, perhaps? the race that's based in hovercraft.) Even then though, that race had the standard set of 'wind generator style building, solar generator style, metal extractor, metal/energy storage, level one light laser, level two missile tower,' ect, ect.
I wanted a race that didn't follow the standard resource system. What about a race in TA that had no resource structures, but rather each unit produced some amount of metal or energy, and their most potent factories could only be built on geothermals? What about a race that relies on stealth, so every unit is stealthy, cloaked, or jammed?
None of these things appeared in TA. Not in 7 (or 8?) years of modding it.
Granted, some things were very impressive. AATA springs to mind as one of the truly original resource systems and game play setups. Even there though, you have buildings that make energy, and buildings that make metal. I'm not faulting AATA, that setup works very well for the way the mod plays, and I love AATA dearly. The issue is that the mod was built around the restrictions of the old engine, and it shows. With Spring, you don't have to do that anymore. Your restrictions are fewer, and if you have something that you can't do...you can code it in yourself, or find a workaround. Spring is far more flexible in this regard than TA, so lets make use of it.
It is time for modders to step up and step away from the restrictions of TA modding and gameplay styles. Spring is capable of so much more than AA or XTA, or even SWTA.
This same goes for mappers. I've had enough of rush to control the middle-metal rich area. I want a map with MULTIPLE areas of strategic importance, one where I am forced to decide whether I control that area with a good bit of metal, or that area with less metal but a few geo sources, or even the area with little resources but a perfect hilltop from which to shell my foes into dust. Mappers are better able to do this than modders right now, because they have been learning a whole new mapping system. Please mappers, give me something new and interesting to play on, and I don't just mean a few shiny features.
Once again, I do not fault any of those. I just had a very enjoyable game of SWTA with Zsinj on The Cold Place (an OTA remake - mappers, you'd do well to learn from TA maps, as they generally had smart resource placement and relied on solid gameplay rather than gimmicks for their value), and it was great fun. But it was essentially the same process as all other TA based mods; take initial commanding unit, build a few resource structures, build factory, build units, scout and attack.
That's great. Lots of fun. But no matter how varied your TA based mod is, be it AA, AATA, SWTA, or WD, you all will follow the same basic theory. Of course, the interest and skill lie in the details of those things, but there are other ways for RTS games to play. I think that a Rome:TW system could be executed quite well in spring; you choose your units, and that's what you have. When your flanking legion of peewees die, they're dead, and they're not coming back. This shifts the game from resource management to tactics and unit control. This is the difference that Chris Taylor elaborated on when he discussed tactics vs strategy. Strategy is broad, claiming certain resource areas so you can outproduce your opponent with just the right kind of unit. Tactics are what you do with those units, and how well you make use of their differing abilities.
I want to see some games that focus on the tactical, rather than the strategical (nanoblobs is the first to do this in any amount, well done Argh). The genius of TA was that it mixed the two reasonably well, with a not-so-minor emphasis on the strategical. We no longer have to abide by the rule that fighting over resource centers is how a RTS game should work. What about a game where you really are fighting to the death with five assorted infantry and an artillary unit, with no hope of resupply, rebuilding, or backup? What about a game where the goal is to be the first to capture a certain enemy installation with a limited number of units? The possibilities abound.
So, I call once again for modders and mappers to free themselves from the TA mindset. TA is great, TA is fun, but there is more to be had. And Spring is capable of doing it.
Version 1: Limited Units mode
Energy = Points
Metal = not used
Each side has a starting structure that can build anything, and builds things instantly.
Each unit has a points cost.
The points per game can be controlled using the max energy slider
Its basically vertual tabletop, but in real time and on PC
Version 2: RTS mode
Energy = Logistics
Metal = Points
Each side has a starting builder unit
Each unit has a points cost.
Buildings will cost points and logistics
There will be special buildings that increase the max points storage
Weapons fire and movement also cost logistics
Points is gained by controlling strategically important areas (such as a space dock or something). Plop a banner on a 'Strategic Area Marker' to control it. (It would be even better if we could plop the flags on the map automatically, and you gained control of an area by capturing it)
aGorm wrote:... I love chaos. Espcialy Tzeentch. ...
The greater deamon of Tzeentch is awesome. But my favorite is tha great greater deamon of Khorne in all it's might!
(WS 10, Str 10, Tough 7, Wounds 10, Atk 10, totally insane)
About Games Workshop bitching about such mod, i doubt that but you could make things like, in the loading screens, give info about what it is based from, like placing a link to Game Workshop.
I really doubt they would bitch about free publicity.
honestly i don't think they are gonna care much. With Warhammer Online (now called W.A.R. which is retarded imho) and their warhammer rts they aren't gonna be hurting for business. we really can't offer people what THQ offers in DoW (oh and GW, not THQ owns 40k liscense. THQ is merely "borrowing" it) with squads, upgrades, and pure bloody, gorey violence .
Bah, Greater Daemons, give me a tac squad of Ultramarines (sergeant with powerfist/boltpistol, one plasma gun, and one rocket launcher) and ill take down most foes before they even get close (assuming my dice rolls hold up... curse my terrible luck).
j5mello wrote:Bah, Greater Daemons, give me a tac squad of Ultramarines (sergeant with powerfist/boltpistol, one plasma gun, and one rocket launcher) and ill take down most foes before they even get close (assuming my dice rolls hold up... curse my terrible luck).
Broadsides/Hammerhead = DOOM!
I really liked both of Guessmyname's ideas, they could easily be included as two different mods like AA.
Anyone notice the press release announcing another DoW expansion, including two new races, one of which is the Tau. My best guess is that the other one would be the Tyranids, would contrast well with Tau...
I'd love to see Chaos and Orks in this mod. To have several chapters of Chaos Marines, modelled differently, would be quite cool too. Is anyone actually still looking at converting the WH40K TA mod into a Spring mod?
Ultramarines Sux!! I'd like to see a squad take on a squade of my Tzeentch marrines. Lets see... Soucere has bolt of Tzeentch, str 5, 4 attacks with a power sword (which goes befor your fist therfor) plus I coult as always staionary for fireing purposes. My basic squads win me every battel... (For some reason I have terrible dice rools when using tanks/dreds)
Plus my deaom prince rocks arse... Ill post a pic later.
Dam, it's back up on the works... Last time i saw it, the ones making Warhammer Online had given up and were anouncing it on the game's page. If they make it properly .. godam [ droooool ]
No other universe i know has the depth of Warhammer Fantasy or Warhammer 40K!!!
j5mello wrote:... Bah, Greater Daemons, give me a tac squad of Ultramarines ...
Ultramarines= Warhammer 40K, not fantasy. In 40K, the greater deamon of Khorne is much weaker. But, on the other hand, in 40K, we have the wraithlords .
Damn bright lancing Wraithlords. Many a time they have stranded my termies on the battleground when they took out my Land Raider (still can't believe i laughed at the wraithord when he started firing). one of my usual opponents uses Ulthwe? and i have to deal with the damn thing everygame. add in his fire prism and my vehicle forces suffer badly. But, i shred his guardians to pieces along with some of his other Aspect Warriors. It all comes down to who is the better strategist and the mission we are playing (i love being Defender in a Bunker Assault )...
...anyway back to the mod, the only thing about the orcs as a race is that they rely heavily on close combat which we all know is really impractical in the engine atm. Also if someone wants me to contact zwzsg for the unfinished WHTA mod let me know and ill see if he will let us have it. like i said before all it really needs to work is some scripting fixes. graphical stuff can be handled later.
For feck's sake, why they not aim?!? I have no idea whats causing this, Scriptor compiles the scripts fine, they worked before the new 3do models (albiet with some different piece names here and there) and, combining the new models and old scripts, they will aim! (just can't fire properly due to renamed firepoints). I'm going to try reinstalling Spring. Maybe its something that's been cached that's screwing things up <-- still no effect
Also, j5mello? Can you give me access to the the http://epic40k.tauniverse.com/ so that I can actually upload stuff there?
well ive given up getting a forum with TAU so i decided to exercise the option of makin a phpBB forum using one of the available mySQL database slots they gave me. Here it is:
I want to see some games that focus on the tactical, rather than the strategical (nanoblobs is the first to do this in any amount, well done Argh). The genius of TA was that it mixed the two reasonably well, with a not-so-minor emphasis on the strategical. We no longer have to abide by the rule that fighting over resource centers is how a RTS game should work. What about a game where you really are fighting to the death with five assorted infantry and an artillary unit, with no hope of resupply, rebuilding, or backup? What about a game where the goal is to be the first to capture a certain enemy installation with a limited number of units? The possibilities abound.
ROFLMAO
nanoblobs...tactical?
its spam. spimmity spam spam spam. fun nonetheless and now beginning to increase the amount of strategy in it. but it is ANY THING BUT TACTICAL
Try playing AA (NOT AATA) there is a LOT of tactics in that especially in 2v2's on a nice big map with a lot of flanks and few choke points like comet.
Hell if you want tactics whats wrong with XTA on Small Divide?
Rant aside i would actually like wider support for this engine, but what you said makes little sense to me.
One mod that promises tactics aplenty seems to be GEM with all sorts of quirks with arc fired weapons etc.
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